State suspends gun carry permit for James Yeager

[No_0ne]

...maybe they should have revoked it under that "mentally defective" clause...

Edited January 12, 2013 by No_0ne

[JayC]

So if someone threatens to kill people, we don't do anything until he actually kills people, then act?

 

That makes sense to you?

 

Making a direct threat is a crime, charge him with that crime if he committed it...

 

But, I don't see any direct or specific threats in the video...  By far I'm not an expert on first amendment law, but...  I believe I can show an example:

 

1. "I think we should kill all the no good politicians if they pass that law" 

 

2. "I'm going to kill President Scooby-Doo"

 

My understanding is that 1 is protected speech and not a criminal act, and 2 is not protected speech and is a criminal act.

 

If he committed a crime, charge him and revoke his permit as part of the process...  if he didn't commit a crime (which I believe is the case), then it's protected speech and TDOS is in the wrong to suspend or revoke his permit over it.

[Sam1]

I wonder if this is equivalent to the "1 inch" he was referring to.

 

What's that saying..? "Give someone an inch and they take your HCP"   :rofl:

[Hi Point Hooligan]

You know I am not going to argue constitutional law, or what amendments cover what. Because it is a slippery slope. But I will tell you this, I have been watching this guys videos for some time. I am not going to say he is a nut case, but his videos could be used as a catalyst for some people to become violent (he did mention in one of his videos that people have been contacting him, in regards  to when the fun starts)

 

Alex Jones is just as bad, but he is a marketing GURU, selling conspiracy theory videos, hats and T-shirts. I have double checked some of his reports and this guy just takes the news and spins it.. FEMA camps and coffins what a joke.

 

Sorry Obummer is not going to side step the constitution or law or anything of the such. Nor is Biden going to have our guns banned. I hear people say look at “Nazi Germany”

Well in that time period Germany did not have as many people to control, and towns were closer together than in the US… The population was easy to control, and means of communication were not as they are today.. So word spread slow..

 

Do you think any republicans would vote for any bill that would take away our guns?

They might vote on a mag ban, but that is about it.. so let’s stop all the BS put our don’t tread on me flags, and our come and take them flags away and act like we have some common sense…..

[G27]

If he committed a crime, charge him and revoke his permit as part of the process...  if he didn't commit a crime (which I believe is the case), then it's protected speech and TDOS is in the wrong to suspend or revoke his permit over it.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to break any laws to be considered a potentially dangerous person.

 

I know it doesn't fit the ultra-libertarian view many here seem to hold, but I'm fine with a suspension of someone carry permit when they start acting like Yeager. 

[vontar]

I think I might have some input on this.

 

Everyone keeps talking about the warning signs and no one taking action before it is too late. (cases where there have been warning signs)

 

He made a general threat and it was taken serious so they acted.  (I don't believe he was planning anything myself, however one should not make general threats)

 

If they had not acted and say for example the threat actually happened down the road, people would be complaining no action was taken with a threat..

 

 

 

It's easy. Get an FFL and start selling AR-15's. :)

Yea right, tell me where they are going to get AR's to sell.

Edited January 12, 2013 by vontar

[Oh Shoot]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to break any laws to be considered a potentially dangerous person.

 

Kwik didn't. Where are his supporters in this thread?

 

- OS

[JayC]

 

Having a drivers license is not a right, it can be revoked at any time when the state has good lawful reason. The HCP is no different.  Notice that they are not taking his guns from him.  That is a right protected by the Constitution.  

 

The state only suspended his HCP and I support that decision.  He will likely get it back after they think he has cooled down.  

 

So if he had said, "I wish God would strike all TDOS employees dead", they could suspend or revoke his drivers license?  No.  That would be a clear violation of the first amendment.  A HCP permit is no different...

 

TDOS needs a information that proves a material threat to the public...  They should not be able to use constitutionally protected speech as the sole basis for suspending or revoking a permit.

 

And frankly, I don't think I want the power to suspend or revoke anybody's permit for life in the hands of an unelected bureaucrat at TDOS...  This is the same department that runs the (unconstitutional) TICS program that has such a high false positive rate it's almost a joke.  Do you really want them to be able to revoke a permit because they think a guy needs to cool down?

 

 

[Dolomite_supafly]

Wonder when his next video will come out. More importantly I wonder if he will show some humility.

I wonder how it will affect his business or any of his licensing.

Dolomite

[vontar]

Chew on this.

 

http://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-01/43-threats-of-violence.html

 

"true threats" are ouside the 1st amendment,

however the Supreme Court has determined some threats are not true threats according to that article.

[ProjectDexter]

It will probably increase business, which may or may not be fortunate for him depending on what comes from all of this.

[Oh Shoot]

"The office of Homeland Security serves as a liaison between federal, state and local agencies, and private sector on matters relating to the security of our state and citizens."

 

First page of their website.

 

Fine. So that means that federal DHS calls none of the shots, eh?

 

Right.

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

His original vid was featured on The Ed Show last night, and Yeager was aready scheduled to appear himself on tonight's show. Don't know if he still will.

 

But yep,  it's just more anti-gun grist for the progressive mill.

 

- OS

 

Yeager was just part of lead story on Hard Ball, as one of the leading "gun crazies". He's really made the big time all right. I know Kwik must be uber jealous.

 

- OS

Edited January 12, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Seabeejason]

So if he had said, "I wish God would strike all TDOS employees dead", they could suspend or revoke his drivers license?  No.  That would be a clear violation of the first amendment.  A HCP permit is no different...

 

TDOS needs a information that proves a material threat to the public...  They should not be able to use constitutionally protected speech as the sole basis for suspending or revoking a permit.

 

And frankly, I don't think I want the power to suspend or revoke anybody's permit for life in the hands of an unelected bureaucrat at TDOS...  This is the same department that runs the (unconstitutional) TICS program that has such a high false positive rate it's almost a joke.  Do you really want them to be able to revoke a permit because they think a guy needs to cool down?

 

I am on the fence about it, but the guy got on YouTube and stated "I am going to start killing people".  He was a complete and irresponsible dumb ass for doing it.  I see your point regarding the First Amendment.  I read in the news where Black Panthers state that they would like to kill white people and absolutely nothing is done, because it is spoken word protected by the First Amendment and not a direct threat.  We definitely have to be very careful about setting precedents.  It could bite us in the ass, especially when it comes to the 2nd Amendment.  

 

The HCP thing is kind of a gray area.  I agree that the TDOS should not have authority over the HCP program.  Maybe we should lobby for that authority to be put somewhere else.  It is clearly a problem that needs to be discussed going forward.  

 

The unfortunate fact is (at this time) that the HCP is a privilege granted by the state and the state can suspend it.  It sucks, but we have to deal with it.  In Missouri, where I am from, you can legally open carry or carry in a vehicle without any permit whatsoever.  You need a permit to carry concealed.  I find it odd that Tennessee is not at least similar to that being as Conservative as it is.  This is another bag of beans that probably needs to be opened in the future.  My opinion is that we should be able to carry without a permit.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Seabeejason

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, all I see is that this episode of Yeager is determined by whether or not you like the guy. I didn't see his original video,

but the TNDOS/ whatever, should have maybe called him and asked him what he meant before they went and suspended.

 

This business of someone having the potential of doing someone else harm is nothing to me because I have that ability, also.

Protected speech must only apply to some and not others? That's the problem, unless I really missed something and he

threatened someone directly. Did he do that? He doesn't matter one way or another to me, but he also has the same rights

as I do and those rights are well worth defending. JayC and Stegall are right as far as I'm concerned.

 

What the ones with power can do to one person can easily happen to you or I. I'd be cautious criticizing, here.

Edited January 12, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[Hi Point Hooligan]

So if he had said, "I wish God would strike all TDOS employees dead", they could suspend or revoke his drivers license?  No.  That would be a clear violation of the first amendment.  A HCP permit is no different...

 

TDOS needs a information that proves a material threat to the public...  They should not be able to use constitutionally protected speech as the sole basis for suspending or revoking a permit.

 

And frankly, I don't think I want the power to suspend or revoke anybody's permit for life in the hands of an unelected bureaucrat at TDOS...  This is the same department that runs the (unconstitutional) TICS program that has such a high false positive rate it's almost a joke.  Do you really want them to be able to revoke a permit because they think a guy needs to cool down?

 

So how is the TICS system "unconstitutional"?  It has never kept me from getting a firearm.. I am not going to say that it is a perfect system.. But if it keeps guns out of the hands of criminals I am all for it..

[JayC]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to break any laws to be considered a potentially dangerous person.

 

I know it doesn't fit the ultra-libertarian view many here seem to hold, but I'm fine with a suspension of someone carry permit when they start acting like Yeager. 

 

I agree as the law is worded today, some un-elected bureaucrat at TDOS can wake up tomorrow and revoke your permit because he doesn't like the way you tie your shoes.  I have a major problem with this law (if you recall I got a ton of flak for being against TDOS when they used it on Kwik)....

 

But, if all they have is protected speech (ie non-criminal speech) then they're in the wrong, and likely have acted in an unlawful manner...  

 

We should have this law changed so an independent third party (ie a TN General Sessions Judge) should have to have a hearing and rule on these issues before a permit can be revoked.

 

The government is prohibited from using protected speech against a person, otherwise it has a chilling effect on protected speech...  I believe that Lamont vs Postmaster General 1965 is the SCOTUS case law on point.

 

IANAL but, my understanding is that you can't use somebodies protected speech as the reason to deny them a privilege (or right), least that discourage they're first amendment rights.  But if you're aware of case law that contradicts that, please provide a cite.

[JayC]

So how is the TICS system "unconstitutional"?  It has never kept me from getting a firearm.. I am not going to say that it is a perfect system.. But if it keeps guns out of the hands of criminals I am all for it..

 

Have you ever read the state Constitution?

 

 

That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.

 

You'll note the legislature is only allowed to regulate the WEARING of firearms, last time I checked, purchasing is not wearing.  It's a big money grab for the state, they could let us use the federal system for free... but no they want their $10 on every sale plus sales tax.

 

So that is why I feel TICS is unconstitutional.

[raydog1]

When I saw the original vid, my first thought was, "Does he NOT know that several of his Youtube subcribers are anti-gun activists?" 

 

A good way to spot them is to look through the comments for any over-the-top racist comment.  They LOVE to plant those in gun vids.  Look at their subscriptions and comment history and you'll probably find plenty subcriptions/posts in VPC and Brady Bunch-like vids talking about how stupid gunowners are. 

 

They're watching pro-gun Youtubers like hawks. 

 

Jeager just learned the hard way that banning anti-gun commenters is only half the battle.  The other half is your own mouth.

[JayC]

I'm not supporting what he said, only his right to say it without some pencil pusher who doesn't have to answer for his actions revoking his permit.

 

I'm sure if we looked, we both could find members of the KKK and black panthers who made similar comments (ie protected speech) who has not had their permits revoked.

 

If Yeager committed a crime, arrest him, and charge him...  TDOS is a law enforcement department, they know where he's at...

 

But they know the speech is protected by the first amendment, and every judge in this state would have dismissed the charges on the spot...  So they do an end run by using this 'loophole' to suspend his permit, which doesn't make it anymore right or lawful.

 

Again, if his permit is restored, what happens to the un-elected bureaucrat that suspended his permit?  Do they loose their job? Get arrested for violating his rights under the color of law?  No, they have nothing to loose....

 

And that is the problem right there.

 

I am on the fence about it, but the guy got on YouTube and stated "I am going to start killing people".  He was a complete and irresponsible dumb ass for doing it.  I see your point regarding the First Amendment.  I read in the news where Black Panthers state that they would like to kill white people and absolutely nothing is done, because it is spoken word protected by the First Amendment and not a direct threat.  We definitely have to be very careful about setting precedents.  It could bite us in the ass, especially when it comes to the 2nd Amendment.  

 

 

[mikegideon]

If I had to bet money, that suspension came from a lot higher up. It could have easily been Haslam's office, or maybe even higher. I doubt seriously that a DOS desk jockey pulled the trigger. 

[ProjectDexter]

If I had to bet money, that suspension came from a lot higher up. It could have easily been Haslam's office, or maybe even higher. I doubt seriously that a DOS desk jockey pulled the trigger. 

 

Wherein lies the bigger issue.

[JayC]

If I had to bet money, that suspension came from a lot higher up. It could have easily been Haslam's office, or maybe even higher. I doubt seriously that a DOS desk jockey pulled the trigger. 

 

And that is somehow better?  You're permit can be revoked because some elected official doesn't like something you said?

[CQB Elite]

If he committed a crime, charge him and his permit would be revoked automatically as part of the criminal charges....  Otherwise it's protected speech (which I think it clearly is), and to revoke his permit based on protected speech is a clear violation of the 1st amendment.

Yelling, "THE BUILDING IS ON FIRE" in a crowded theater is not protected speech so I bet it ain't smart to get on the grid and threaten to kill people in a very angry tone. Especially in our current state of affairs.

[daddyo]

No, no, no.... I don't like this at all. Yeager was stupid, but I want to know what law he broke.