IDIOTS Open Carry ARs in Portland

[Guest RobThatsMe]

I really enjoy reading the "Armed Citizen" column in the NRA's monthly magazine.

 

It would interesting to see the NRA have short TV commericals using these stories to inform people how guns DO save lives.

 

But unfortunately, the mainstream media would not allow them to be aired.

[TMF]

[quote name="Paladin132" post="882469" timestamp="1357990426"]Ok, I was not going to say anything because I will be shouted down, but late last year I made a promise to myself that I would no longer ignore a conversation because I thought I would lose. To do so give us the situation we find ourselves in now, with an uninformed population that uses the police as a weapon because they are scared by the sight of something.   A folk, no law was broken in the instances I have seen. If we do not stand up and come out of the closet we are going to become criminalized. Crime is a construct of society and does not necessarily follow intelligent or reasonable processes. I point you to the law in California where you cannot whistle at a whale as an example (maybe I am a dumb hick but I would not have thought that illegal until seeing the news story this week about it).   While I am not one to go out and open carry, many folks advocate doing so when I do something for recreation - hiking and backpacking. It is something I have considered. Perhaps instead of acting like those we criticize (think about the comments above that go on the feelings of the situation not the facts) we should structure our responses to say well that was unwise and I believe that it makes our lives harder as gun owners. It bothers me that we as a group are so divided – we have allowed anti-gunners to do that to us and it weakens us. Of course some outliers are going to be out there flapping, but hunters are unconcerned because they do not think their rights are at risk (and they are on the horizon too folks) and OC vs CC and on and on. We have compromised to much already. Let us compromise a little bit more down to a 10 round magazine then 8, then 5, then 1. It is a moral argument and one which must be challenged, stopped, and in some cases rolled back.   Now as to my feelings on this thread topic: if they were not breaking the law, then why not? Would it be that bad to have an organized gathering of gun owners who have their weapons with them?   No? Then consider what are USPCA and other shooting sports? What about when we gather for breakfast as a pro-gun club?   No it may have been unwise, but only because we have allowed our countrymen to become scared sheep. As gun owners we are supposed to be sheepdogs. Sheepdogs do not ridicule the sheep for being sheep - it is their nature.[/quote] The problem here is context. It is not unusual to be driving down a country road and see some fellas on the side of the road with rifles slung on their shoulders. Where I'm from folks have them secured to the front of their 4 wheelers, and usually it's an AR15, and no one even bats an eye. This is because the immediate assumption is the rifle is being used for hunting or being taken over to a neighbors house to shoot. So what would be the context of carrying a rifle around in the middle of the city? I have no fear of guns, but if I was to see that my immediate reaction would be much different than if I was out in the country, and for good reason. My first assumption would not be that they are just carrying it around for the hell of it. Now, being the somewhat competent gun enthusiast, I may have notices that their mag wells were empty and then realized they were just being assclowns, but do you expect the average person to know that? If you do you are not being very genuine, or you have zero understanding of the vast majority of Americans who don't keep a small arsenal in their houses. I don't blame them for getting spooked. Not only that, spooking the people was likely the desired outcome here, so they could get in the paper then b**ch about their 2A blah blah blah. These people are doing us no favors and work directly against the interests of responsible gun owners who wish to keep their rights intact. Folks who embrace these jack holes work against their own interests, and are foolish.

[JayC]

Appleseed project. Albeit a bit late at this point, we must educate and train a nation of riflemen.

 

I love the Appleseed project, but lets be real...  Appleseed is for people who at least have a passing interest in guns...  A large chunk of the population doesn't have any interest in firearms and are never going to hear about the Appleseed project let alone go to one....

 

Why don't people freak out when they see a police officer with a firearm?  Because they've gotten use to seeing police officers with guns....

 

I know of no better way to 'condition' the public to thinking carrying a firearm is no big deal, other than seeing otherwise law abiding citizens carrying a firearm around them day after day with nothing bad happening.

 

How does that logic not work?

[TMF]

[quote name="JayC" post="882645" timestamp="1358008700"] Why don't people freak out when they see a police officer with a firearm?  Because they've gotten use to seeing police officers with guns....   I know of no better way to 'condition' the public to thinking carrying a firearm is no big deal, other than seeing otherwise law abiding citizens carrying a firearm around them day after day with nothing bad happening.   How does that logic not work?[/quote] It will never, ever, ever, ever ever be a normal thing to see a guy walk down a city street with a rifle. Did I mention ever? After September 11th I had to post guard at my local Nat'l Guard armory with my loaded M16 with a basic combat load and do regular perimeter patrols. This was in the middle of a very small town, and even then I got a lotta looks, and I was in uniform. There are few places where it is an everyday thing for the average Joe to walk around carrying a rifle: Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya... well most of sub-Saharan Africa. We will never be on that list. Even in the "wild west" folks kept their rifles in a scabbard and their pistols holstered.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

Good insights on both sides of the debate.  I'm for open carry, but also understand the rules of propaganda.  Not just gun owners, but all constitutionalists need to get smart on propaganda tactics.  You don't win folks to a cause by scaring them, nor do you win it by surrender.  A peaceful assembly in an urban center by a bunch of guys wearing clean clothes, nice haircuts, and custom 1911's on their side makes a great statement IMO.  Then you'd have to work the media, have your own videographer, and use social media to your advantage.  No place for idiocy in propaganda wards, but abdication isn't the solution either.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And when the police or military who respond to the cries of a pissed off public arrive to put down your demonstration in a very unpleasant way, then where do we stand?

You mean like Tiananmen Square? I guess we are headed down that road, just with different tanks. :D

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It will never, ever, ever, ever ever be a normal thing to see a guy walk down a city street with a rifle. Did I mention ever? After September 11th I had to post guard at my local Nat'l Guard armory with my loaded M16 with a basic combat load and do regular perimeter patrols. This was in the middle of a very small town, and even then I got a lotta looks, and I was in uniform. There are few places where it is an everyday thing for the average Joe to walk around carrying a rifle: Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya... well most of sub-Saharan Africa. We will never be on that list. Even in the "wild west" folks kept their rifles in a scabbard and their pistols holstered.

But we are evidently heading in that direction, TMF. Do you really think things will get better? The only way I see this trend reversing

is by reversing a decades old propaganda machine and getting our government back from thugs. I have been proposing replacing

the current crop of Republican Party elites for some time, and that bunch just got Boehner another two years as Speaker. It's always

an uphill battle when there are idiots in charge.

[mikegideon]

I love the Appleseed project, but lets be real...  Appleseed is for people who at least have a passing interest in guns...  A large chunk of the population doesn't have any interest in firearms and are never going to hear about the Appleseed project let alone go to one....

 

Why don't people freak out when they see a police officer with a firearm?  Because they've gotten use to seeing police officers with guns....

 

I know of no better way to 'condition' the public to thinking carrying a firearm is no big deal, other than seeing otherwise law abiding citizens carrying a firearm around them day after day with nothing bad happening.

 

How does that logic not work?

 

I think that it's not so much what they've seen, but what they've been told. You have a huge group of folks that try to make the public fearful of civilian gun owners. Unfortunately, MOST media is included in that sorry bunch. They all support cops with guns.

[Mark@Sea]

  I would hazard a guess that "the great majority" isn't all that great at this point.  Black rifles are either self-vaporizing or people are buying 'em.  Sure don't see them on the shelves at my LGS.  Mags - hahahahahaha.....  and ammo.  I'm crawling the net a couple hours a day looking for .223 that isn't 75 cents a round or more.  When I have found some, it has disappeared in a matter of hours.

 

 

  I keep thinking of the Jews in Germany.  When they were made the scapegoats, they accepted all sorts of impositions and degradations to show the people they were 'unthreatening', good citizens.  They didn't stand up for themselves or their rights, and in the end it availed them nothing.

 

  I wonder what would have happened if the six million that went meekly to death camps had instead armed themselves and told the NAZI party "bring it" (or if you prefer it in the original greek "Molon Labe"). 

 

 

 Bullies (and the press are bullies) pick on soft targets.  I've never seen a bully pick on somebody that'd hash his lunch in a new york minute.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Mark@Sea

[Rickey]

I'm not a big speaker but it sound's to me were damned if we do and damned if we don't. Most of us have our CC permit and pretty much the public doesn't know were carrying and they still don't trust us. My own preference is if something bad happens I want the upper hand so I keep mine hid. I honestly don't think its gonna make a bit of difference one way or the other the ones that are straddling the fence will chose the side that's winning and they'll switch sides if the one there on is starting to lose

[mcurrier]

But we are evidently heading in that direction, TMF. Do you really think things will get better? The only way I see this trend reversing

is by reversing a decades old propaganda machine and getting our government back from thugs. I have been proposing replacing

the current crop of Republican Party elites for some time, and that bunch just got Boehner another two years as Speaker. It's always

an uphill battle when there are idiots in charge.

The order of the universe is chaos.  Things generally tend to not get better without major direct intervention, and that is usually a temporary thing (e.g. "Bush Tax Cuts").

[mcurrier]

I honestly don't think its gonna make a bit of difference one way or the other the ones that are straddling the fence will chose the side that's winning and they'll switch sides if the one there on is starting to lose

 

Yup.

[NRA]

Why don't people freak out when they see a police officer with a firearm?  Because they've gotten use to seeing police officers with guns....

For starters these knuckle heads did not have a badge or uniform on.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Ok, I was not going to say anything because I will be shouted down, but late last year I made a promise to myself that I would no longer ignore a conversation because I thought I would lose. To do so give us the situation we find ourselves in now, with an uninformed population that uses the police as a weapon because they are scared by the sight of something.

 

A folk, no law was broken in the instances I have seen. If we do not stand up and come out of the closet we are going to become criminalized. Crime is a construct of society and does not necessarily follow intelligent or reasonable processes. I point you to the law in California where you cannot whistle at a whale as an example (maybe I am a dumb hick but I would not have thought that illegal until seeing the news story this week about it).

 

While I am not one to go out and open carry, many folks advocate doing so when I do something for recreation - hiking and backpacking. It is something I have considered. Perhaps instead of acting like those we criticize (think about the comments above that go on the feelings of the situation not the facts) we should structure our responses to say well that was unwise and I believe that it makes our lives harder as gun owners. It bothers me that we as a group are so divided – we have allowed anti-gunners to do that to us and it weakens us. Of course some outliers are going to be out there flapping, but hunters are unconcerned because they do not think their rights are at risk (and they are on the horizon too folks) and OC vs CC and on and on. We have compromised to much already. Let us compromise a little bit more down to a 10 round magazine then 8, then 5, then 1. It is a moral argument and one which must be challenged, stopped, and in some cases rolled back.

 

Now as to my feelings on this thread topic: if they were not breaking the law, then why not? Would it be that bad to have an organized gathering of gun owners who have their weapons with them?

 

No? Then consider what are USPCA and other shooting sports? What about when we gather for breakfast as a pro-gun club?

 

No it may have been unwise, but only because we have allowed our countrymen to become scared sheep. As gun owners we are supposed to be sheepdogs. Sheepdogs do not ridicule the sheep for being sheep - it is their nature.

 

OK, this is a way to frame the argument that I can appreciate rather than the "eff 'em if they don't like it" approach.  I especially like the last statement.  I'm not sure I fully agree because I think there are better ways to ease the public into this without roaming around town carrying AR15 rifles. 

I do like this gathering for breakfast talk though...

[Guest ThePunisher]

It's astonishing to think that kids can't enjoy being kids like the times when I was growing up in the inner city playing with my toy guns and later my BB gun. The public wasn't shocked by kids playing with toy guns and BB guns then. No wonder so many kids and teenagers are becoming neurotic nut cases later on when they can't use their child imaginations growing up anymore. We've rolled over to these commies for a long time. When are we gonna stop rolling over? Edited January 12, 2013 by ThePunisher

[Rickey]

Are we so scared that we won't exercise our OC rights because we might offend someone? we need to do it the right time and the right place and when is this? Do we now need a manual to let us know when and where or some one to tell us? The next question that's gonna come our way is why do we need OC if  we never OC?  We as gun owners better take a long hard look at our self and decide where to draw the line.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

Are we so scared that we won't exercise our OC rights because we might offend someone? we need to do it the right time and the right place and when is this? Do we now need a manual to let us know when and where or some one to tell us? The next question that's gonna come our way is why do we need OC if  we never OC?  We as gun owners better take a long hard look at our self and decide where to draw the line.

I don't think it's a matter of offending the sheep, it's a matter of whether we throw them into a panicky dash out of the constitutional pasture.  Our 'manual' must be one of common sense, or in today's culture, not-so-common sense.  You're absolutely right about the need to draw lines; once we've drawn the lines, though, we need rational methods for implementing our convictions.  But we must communicate the truth using methods they can relate to and understand.  One of our problems is that we have a hard time getting into the head of the sheep so we can reason with them.  The people we want to persuade are not the 40% of our nation who are rabid statists.  Our audience are the unthinking masses who march to the bleat of the media.  Our job is to make them think, to somehow get them out of their funk.  

 

If I may compare to another very emotional issue, consider abortion.  There are pro-life advocates who march around with gruesome photos of aborted fetuses.  These good folks have firm convictions, have drawn a line in the sand, and couldn't care less who they offend.  Even if we agree with them, are these methods effective at changing minds?  

Edited January 13, 2013 by TNSovereignty

[Rickey]

I don't know the answer I'm searching for answers just like the next. Now it has been my experience that the unthinking mass are gonna take the path of least resistance as in "as long as there just taking those assault rifles and those 30rd mags and not trying to take my deer rifle there's nothing wrong with that why do they need them any way"   that's how they think and I don't believe any of us will change that till it affects them.  By then its done to late. One thing is certain were running out of time and we better come up with something quick. I think in march the UN arms treaty comes back up and if its passed the 2nd amendment will be void. We better come up with something to wake "The unthinking masses up"

[Dad03]

We can draw a hard line in the sand and say F' you its our right and we don't care if my actions make you feel scared, threatened,etc. but it only fuels the fires to take the rights away.

With the right to carry comes responsibility. Responsibility to pratice gun safety, be trained to use and handle it safely.  Responsibility to be courtious to the fellow man. Basically we raise the bar on our behavoir.

 

You want to carry your AR out in public have at it and enjoy the right in an appropriate place. But don't go walking down small town USA like some commando wannabe.  People will always see it as a threat.  I see a cop walking down the street I am OK because I trust he has been well trained. I see a cop carrying an AR I think some serious stuff must be going down somewhere.

I see a civilian carrying an AR I raise an eyebrow. I don't know if this guy failed the 5th grade 10 times and just bought this with absolutely no training.

 

Basically if we dont exercise discresion in our judgemnt when and where to open carry the government will exercise it for us and we won't like the outcome.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Dad03

[plank white]

I remember having a training day drill or some exercise back in like 05 or 06 where the guard unit I was in at the time went downtown in the park to train the event had been setup and planned ahead of time."This was back when everyone was pro Army etc.etc." but when we pulled up and started jumping out of the dueces with m16s folks went apesh*t the law showed up and was a really cool guy but asked us to leave due to overwealming calls so we did .....So if a scheduled National Guard training exercise will make folks quiver I can imagine what an average joe would look like

[Chief07]

Somebody slap these guys...

 

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t2#/video/us/2013/01/11/dnt-men-carry-rifles-through-town-to-educate.kptv

What the heck are they smoking up there?

They call us stupid in the south???

Not too bright. Doesn't help our cause.

Good grief. 

[Rickey]

I don't think its gonna matter how polite we try to be there still going to try to get our firearms.

 

http://cnsnews.com/blog/charlie-daniels/precedent-teaches-us-left-really-wants-all-our-guns

[TMF]

[quote name="Rickey" post="883286" timestamp="1358044806"]I don't think its gonna matter how polite we try to be there still going to try to get our firearms.   [url=http://cnsnews.com/blog/charlie-daniels/precedent-teaches-us-left-really-wants-all-our-guns]http://cnsnews.com/blog/charlie-daniels/precedent-teaches-us-left-really-wants-all-our-guns[/url][/quote] We are losing the fight in regards to public perception because gun owners like this are playing checkers while the gun grabbers are playing chess. Little stunts like this, and the gun owners that support it, show how short sighted the gun owning community is. This is why we are losing.

[Oh Shoot]

You want to carry your AR out in public have at it and enjoy the right in an appropriate place. But don't go walking down small town USA like some commando wannabe...

 

You can't legally walk around in public with a rifle and ammo at the same time in TN anyway, so what would really be the point?

 

- OS

Edited January 13, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Jason in TN]

You guys need to move to east Tennessee. The local flea market today saw five or six folks carrying pistols open on there side one woman and no one was freaking out. Folks around here are use to seeing guns and 90% of them own a gun. These guys probably should not be doing this but if they are not breaking the law what do you do make another law. It should be legal and people should not be scared because some one has a gun hell every one should carry a gun every day. Then no one would even notice it does not get much attention here.

Jason Edited January 13, 2013 by Jason in TN