Kyle Defoor says lose the plate carriers, batman belt, kevlar helmets...

[TGO David]

I agree with this 100%.  While rolling around in the dirt all dressed up like some sort of mercenary bad-ass at a civilian high-risk shoot 'em up training class is undeniably fun, it's about as practical as tits on a boar.  You're welcome to debate my stance on that all you want and argue that your favorite badass teacher with a ton of YouTube videos is more knowledgeable and more badass than I am, but let's look at Kyle's creds first:

 

 

Kyle Defoor is a former Special Mission Unit combat decorated Navy SEAL and sniper who served in Afghanistan. He was awarded the Bronze Star w/Valor for actions in Operation Anaconda. Kyle teaches firearms and tactics to military and law enforcement personnel throughout the United States. He offers marksmanship related open enrollment classes to qualified civilians.

 

 

Unless your guy has credentials like that, your guy can STFU.

 

So here's what Kyle has to say about civilians and training for the fight:

 

Secondly, I will continue to run all open enrollment classes from deep concealment, not just an OWB with a shirt over it. I believe this is more important now than ever due to recent events, the possible coming bans and the fact that the concealed draw is, in my opinion, one of the most important skills a civilian MUST master. With this, I hope that more OE students will train with me as they would walk the street, which is to say probably not wearing a mil helmet, cammie uniform, plate carrier, and over belt. Additionally, I will be working on some training nuance’s to be able to get more out of pistols than traditionally is thought of. This is a major reboot for some people as they simply wear the other gear because it’s easier to shoot and do drills from, but in fact is more complicated once the concealed draw is learned, and has no application to the real world. It also goes without saying that blade work will be more important now than ever.

 

Source:  http://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/39690998443/re-boot

 

Click on over and read it.

 

:popcorn:

[Trekbike]

Good article.  He makes very valid points that I can't argue with.   .  

[gjohnsoniv]

Sounds like a lesson some people should listen to.

[Mike]

Good read.  I agree with him.

 

 

While rolling around in the dirt all dressed up like some sort of mercenary bad-ass at a civilian high-risk shoot 'em up training class is undeniably fun, it's about as practical as tits on a boar.

 

Yep, but it is a hell of a lot of fun.

 

Mike

Edited January 7, 2013 by Mike

[TMF]

Then where would I put all my tough guy morale patches?

[Mark A]

I've been fortunate enough to train in some pretty good classes. One of the most useful and interesting was a couples class with Tiger McKee. It focused on how to work with your spouse to remove yourself from a bad situation.

Lots of work on verbal communication and getting around corners to get out of a house. It included working together to solve problems that one person alone would be hard pressed to resolve. That is the kind of real world training I could use more of.

It wasn't a super high round count which meant it wasn't a commercial success but I wouldn't trade those 2 days for anything in the world. Both my wife and I got a ton out of it.

Tiger doesn't talk a whole lot but for some reason I have more notes from any one of his classes than I do all the rest combined.

And yes, it is a lot of fun to go out and work on tactics and such... I'm with Mike on that one, even if it is hard for me to hit the deck and shoot in some uncomfortable position.

Mark

[Jamie Jackson]

Holy Cow!

 

Logic and Reason? Common Sense?

 

Thanks David. His blog has some good reads on it. Common sense can be rather uncommon these days.

[TGO David]

Kyle is the real deal.  More importantly he's the real deal who also "gets it" as it pertains to civilian carry and self defense.

 

I won't begrudge anyone a day of rolling around in the mud because it can be a lot of fun, but like I said it's incredibly impractical.  I've started referring to the primary benefit of those classes as providing Retail War Stories for people who didn't sign up for the armed forces.  You pay your money, throw on a lot of combat gear, bunk with strangers-turned-band-of-brothers for a weekend, bust a lot of caps, and come away with some "No shit... there I was putting rounds onto this tango 300 yds away while my buddies were closing in from the left flank" stories that you can tell at your boring ass job come Monday morning.

 

If you're lucky, someone has a camera and the common sense to spot good photo-ops so you can post up a bunch of bad ass photos on Facebook.

 

Bah, who am I kidding.  Everyone has a camera. :)

[Spots]

After spending 5 years rolling in the dirt in USMC cif gear I am more than happy to train as minimalist as possible. Good pants long sleeve shirt and a hat. This guy makes excellent points

[TGO David]

I kind of ran out of time a moment ago while I was formulating my rant...

 

However, I do digress.  I am fully supportive of true fighting handgun and fighting carbine classes having open enrollment to civvies (OE in Kyle's blog) where you're taught practical things.  Some of the best classes I've had yet were taught by CIS back when Todd and Dustin were doing their thing, and we never once "popped smoke" or fast-roped into a shooting position.  Yeah, there was some shooting from the ground, but it was practical stuff.  It was stuff that taught you how to deal with shooting from awkward positions because you had just gotten knocked on your ass, or because you were simulating operating a firearm while slightly incapacitated.

 

I would like to attend more of those types of classes in 2013 if ammo supply and budget permit.  I'd also like to mix some force-on-force and martial arts training into there as well.

 

I will be skipping anything that has civilians doing silly shit like this...

 

 

Why?  Because it's just me and my wife at home and I don't see us entering a structure in a stick formation like a bunch of Facebook Ninjas anytime soon.

 

That's my new term.  Feel free to use it.

[Jamie Jackson]

After spending 5 years rolling in the dirt in USMC cif gear I am more than happy to train as minimalist as possible. Good pants long sleeve shirt and a hat. This guy makes excellent points

 

 

LOL, Great points Sir.

 

While being an old fart, such as I am, and an old Corpsman, I never did the "cool guy" stuff while on Active Duty...then, like now, I was "working for a living"... :cool:

 

I don't own any cool guy gear and don't feel my life is incomplete. I do carry daily, and have for a mighty long time. I compete with my carry gear, I practice and train with my EDC gear, and dress in the same snazzy fashion each and every day...jeans and T-Shirt with the occasional sweat shirt. I am not "tacti-cool".

 

The thing that I admire about instructors I've had in the past, like Givens, Farnam, and SouthNarc, is that they train the average joe to do what is necessary within the confines of reality.

 

I don't begrudge anyone going to "gun camp". Heck, I bet it's fun...albeit expensive.

 

I'll just keep trudging along. But I sure would like to train with this guy!

[Romad7]

I am of the opinion that if someone wants to learn learn how to use all the cool combat gear then that's fine, America has some of the best training available just sign your name on the line and off you go. They will even pay you for the experience!

Train how you fight is the way to go and for the majority of us, the fight will be in an environment where carrying a gun openly will harm our cause and deep concealment is the best strategy. In that case training with extra tactical gear will hinder your readiness for actual real world "operations".

I'll be taking my CC class this weekend (CA escapee here) and this is giving me some food for thought as to how I will carry. Good article! Edited January 7, 2013 by Romad7

[TGO David]

I am of the opinion that if someone wants to learn learn how to use all the cool combat gear then that's fine, America has some of the best training available just sign your name on the line and off you go. They will even pay you for the experience!

 

Milspec has been the "new cool" for the past few years and there are some so-called training outfits that have benefited from it by providing "Dude Ranch" experiences for the milspec fanboys.  Like I said, it's an out of the box Band of Brothers experience for folks who never served but want cool war stories to tell when they get back to their mundane jobs.

 

Then there are training outfits that are absolutely serious about equipping people with practical skills that could save their life someday.  Those places have my attention.  The others have my sarcasm.  :)

[Smith]

Call them what they are ... Fantasy camp. :up:  Fun and you will learn some good stuff but practicality is not the reason people go. The training above is more realistic IMO

Edited January 7, 2013 by Smith

[TMF]

[quote name="TGO David" post="878015" timestamp="1357572632"]Milspec has been the "new cool" for the past few years and there are some so-called training outfits that have benefited from it by providing "Dude Ranch" experiences for the milspec fanboys.  Like I said, it's an out of the box [i]Band of Brothers[/i] experience for folks who never served but want cool war stories to tell when they get back to their mundane jobs.   [/quote] To be candid, I do have this fantasy about coming into a large sum of money and building a force on force training center and market it as a corporate retreat of sorts where you spend a week learning how to be a door kicker, then spend the last day doing several culex type missions where you go force on force with opfor. Places like this already exist for gov customers, but I always thought it'd be neat to thrust office types in that scenario for a team building and leadership building retreat. As many here know, when you go force on force it makes folks assume those roles quickly out of necessity. Much better than some hippy sweat lodge or vision quest.

[TGO David]

To be candid, I do have this fantasy about coming into a large sum of money and building a force on force training center and market it as a corporate retreat of sorts where you spend a week learning how to be a door kicker, then spend the last day doing several culex type missions where you go force on force with opfor. Places like this already exist for gov customers, but I always thought it'd be neat to thrust office types in that scenario for a team building and leadership building retreat. As many here know, when you go force on force it makes folks assume those roles quickly out of necessity. Much better than some hippy sweat lodge or vision quest.

 

I've worked for some folks over the years that I'd like to see wetting themselves in a corner while being pinned down by simmunitions fire.  :D

[TMF]

[quote name="TGO David" post="878061" timestamp="1357576701"]I've worked for some folks over the years that I'd like to see wetting themselves in a corner while being pinned down by simmunitions fire.  :D[/quote] One of the pleasures of being opfor. Alas, it remains a fantasy, as I don't believe much market exists for it in the corporate world, especially now that guns are more evil than ever before.

[gjohnsoniv]

One of the pleasures of being opfor. Alas, it remains a fantasy, as I don't believe much market exists for it in the corporate world, especially now that guns are more evil than ever before.

 

 

One of the pleasures of being opfor. Alas, it remains a fantasy, as I don't believe much market exists for it in the corporate world, especially now that guns are more evil than ever before.

You could do the "Ranger Experience" like the guy who does the "Navy Seal Experience" or something like that.

[Jamie Jackson]

Alas, it remains a fantasy, as I don't believe much market exists for it in the corporate world, especially now that guns are more evil than ever before.

 

 

I don't know...the more forbidden the fruit, the greater the desire...at least in certain circumstances.

 

IIRC there have, for a number of years, been junket tours for folks from other countries with totalitarian gun bans to the U.S., primarily for the purpose of shooting and handling those forbidden fruits.

God Help Us, I pray we never come to that. But wish you the best in getting your business up and going.

[TMF]

[quote name="prag" post="878106" timestamp="1357581006"]I don't know...the more forbidden the fruit, the greater the desire...at least in certain circumstances.   IIRC there have, for a number of years, been junket tours for folks from other countries with totalitarian gun bans to the U.S., primarily for the purpose of shooting and handling those forbidden fruits. God Help Us, I pray we never come to that. But wish you the best in getting your business up and going.[/quote] It's a dream anyway. I'd be building it in Florida to accommodate year round classes. I've done enough dynamic training during Tennessee winters to know it is a training distractor. Just need to come into a large sum of money.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

If the object is to make yourself more prepared to deal with likely situations you might face then you really need to train with the same kind of equipment and clothing you will likely be wearing when you have to use it for real. 

 

If the object is to have a fun "dude ranch " type experience then bring and wear whatever you like...it is your fantasy dress however you like. 

 

People ask me what to bring to pistol class. If it is a pistol class I tell them to bring what they really carry and wear what they really wear as THAT is what they will be using when they get jumped in a parking lot. 

 

People ask me what to bring to rifle classes. I ask them to do a SERIOUS assessment of their likely use of the rifle and then dress accordingly.

 

Are they Mil guys? Bring your gear and wear it for the whole class.

 

Police? Wear your vest and duty rig if you like.

 

Civilian? Bring whatever you REALLY will use to carry mags. If that is one mag in the gun and a spare in your back pocket of your pants then good for you for training the way you are really going to be using it. 

 

Train as you will fight. Otherwise it is just tactical entertainment. 

Edited January 7, 2013 by Cruel Hand Luke

[TGO David]

Spot on, Randy.  Spot on.  :up:

[Romad7]

Getting some ideas for cool patches, "Facebook Ninja" and "Tactical Entertainment". :-)

[gjohnsoniv]

I'd buy those.

[dcloudy777]

He brings up some excellent points... but I carry every day in an OWB with a shirt over it....   :cool: