Looks like I picked a bad time to look for my first rifle...

[DaveTN]

 David mentioned the soft armor trend. It's not the first time it's come up. Yep, you might need something more than a .40 to get thru some Kevlar.

I’ve seen the results of too many home invasions; they go down fast.  Even though it’s ready, I’m not sure I could get to it that fast, although I can put a handgun in my hand that fast. Everyone has their opinion, but based on what I have seen no man alive can withstand a close quarter hit from a .308 and still return fire. Even with Rifle plates in the vest it would be hard, the .308 (7.62NATO) is a devastating round. And I’ll be too close to miss. I'm also not going to be out walking around my house looking for anyone..... don't do that.

Edited January 1, 2013 by DaveTN

[mikegideon]

I’ve seen the results of too many home invasions; they go down fast.  Even though it’s ready, I’m not sure I could get to it that fast, although I can put a handgun in my hand that fast. Everyone has their opinion, but based on what I have seen no man alive can withstand a close quarter hit from a .308 and still return fire. Even with Rifle plates in the vest it would be hard, the .308 (7.62NATO) is a devastating round. And I’ll be too close to miss. I'm also not going to be out walking around my house looking for anyone..... don't do that.

 

Just hard to put the blood back into Mrs. Kravitz after you let it out :). A 5.56 is devastating at that range.

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1357067745' post='874213']I really like my AR pistol. It's chambered in .300 BLK. But I don't find it to be bulky. Just a matter of opinion I suppose. I haven't really spent much time thinking about this, but will mention that the BLK is going to plow through some walls. I'm not real diciplined when it comes to a detailed home defense plan, but always keep a PMAG loaded with 55 grain VMaxes. My neighborhood may be a little too dense to sling a bunch of 125 gr Ballistic Tips while I'm dodging bullets.[/quote] Something to consider, although I was more speaking to the size of the gun than caliber. I need to test some bullets on some 2x4s and see how they penetrate.

[mikegideon]

Something to consider, although I was more speaking to the size of the gun than caliber. I need to test some bullets on some 2x4s and see how they penetrate.

 

They're gonna do better than a 5.56. That's kinda the whole point :)

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1357072097' post='874276']Something to consider, although I was more speaking to the size of the gun than caliber. I need to test some bullets on some 2x4s and see how they penetrate. They're gonna do better than a 5.56. That's kinda the whole point :)[/quote] No, I know. That's the reason for testing. Too much penetration through building materials may keep it from being loaded for home defense.

[TGO David]

Regarding 5.56 AR pistols, has the full powder charge really burned in the 7-9" or so that the barrel provides?  I know the 300 BLK charge is optimized to burn completely in a short barrel which would seem to make it a far better choice for small-ish AR builds.

[Oh Shoot]

Regarding 5.56 AR pistols, has the full powder charge really burned in the 7-9" or so that the barrel provides?  ..

 

Certainly not with standard commercial powder loads, hence the nifty flame thrower effect.

 

Try not to be defensive position close to flammable items, eh?

 

- OS

Edited January 1, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Garufa]

AR pistols are crazy loud as well.

[Oh Shoot]

AR pistols are crazy loud as well.

 

Yes, if perp is still conscious after a shot, don't necessarily expect him to respond to verbal commands. Might not hear your own voice either.

 

- OS

Edited January 1, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Moped]

What underfunded, forgotten unit were you in that still had A-1's?

 

Hey now, some us are old you know!  Went to war with M16a1, back in 91.  It served me well.  While most of the Infantry units had a2s and M9s, us Engineers still carried a1s and 1911s.  Didn't get to fire an a2 or a M9 until a couple of years later.  The a2 impressed me!  I thought they hit a home run with it.  I wasn't impressed with the M9.  I've always preferred the 1911 over it.  And never thought it shoot as good as a Glock 17 or a Browning Hi-Power.

 

Back on topic now. Seems like most home invasions happen to people that are doing things they shouldn't be doing.  Not all of them, but most of them.  I'll stick to my pistols and shotguns to fend off the invaders.  

[Moped]

Yes, if perp is still conscious after a shot, don't necessarily expect him to respond to verbal commands. Might not hear your own voice either.

 

- OS

Bet you'd knock them unconscious with a Mosin Nagant M44!  Probably would make it easier to use the bayonet that way!

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='Garufa' timestamp='1357080781' post='874399']AR pistols are crazy loud as well.[/quote] This is true. A carbine length isn't quite, definitely a consideration when using a 5.56 AR for home defense. You're ears might never work right again after a home invasion. Edited January 1, 2013 by Lumber_Jack

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Aah, that pig helps you, at least. I could feel the blast from Mac's the other day, but I thought mine was

much less noisy. I haven't tried my 5.56 pistol with the pig, but I imagine it will have the same results.

 

I won't speculate the perp's disadvantage with the pig, except it'd be loud.

Edited January 2, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[TMF]

[quote name="Moped" post="874407" timestamp="1357081589"]Hey now, some us are old you know!  Went to war with M16a1, back in 91.  It served me well.  While most of the Infantry units had a2s and M9s, us Engineers still carried a1s and 1911s.  Didn't get to fire an a2 or a M9 until a couple of years later.  The a2 impressed me!  I thought they hit a home run with it.  I wasn't impressed with the M9.  I've always preferred the 1911 over it.   [/quote] Yeah, but he said three years ago. I haven't seen an A1 in the hands of a Soldier since '99, and that was a REMF Guard guy. Hell, you can't even get the correct ammo to fire out of an A1 anymore. M855 starts tumbling before 25m out of a 1/12 twist barrel. Seen it myself.

[Spots]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1357087981' post='874497']Yeah, but he said three years ago. I haven't seen an A1 in the hands of a Soldier since '99, and that was a REMF Guard guy. Hell, you can't even get the correct ammo to fire out of an A1 anymore. M855 starts tumbling before 25m out of a 1/12 twist barrel. Seen it myself.[/quote] He actually just said 3 years and he is 51 years old according to profile. I assumed he meant 3 years in a row, probably not 3 years ago Sent from behind my anvil in ye olde smithy Edited January 2, 2013 by Spots

[TMF]

[quote name="Spots" post="874506" timestamp="1357088565"]He actually just said 3 years and he is 51 years old according to profile. I assumed he meant 3 years in a row, probably not 3 years ago Sent from behind my anvil in ye olde smithy[/quote] Oh, ha. Thanks for clearing that up. Guess I read that one wrong.

[Guest Bassman17SC]

1. My P226 is chambered in 9mm; it has a 15 round magazine capacity as standard.

2. Yes, I've done the stuff outside - cleared bushes; installed new lighting; even created a gravel bed underneath the deck (can't get rid of the gravel crunching underneath your feet).  Been thinking about installing window film.

3. Would love to get a dog; wife is somewhat averse.  We are working on that.

4. I live on a 1/3 acre lot; my neighbor to the left is only about 15 feet away; my neighbor to the right is about 50 feet away.  We are situated on a cul-de-sac lot.  However, our back yard abuts against Corps of Engr property and there is nothing but woods.

5. My home invasion scenario does not involve clearing my house; I am in the safe room with the shottie and whichever handgun/backup mags I have at at the moment.  Oh, and my wife will have her p232 right there with me.

6. My time in the Army was during the early-mid '80s.

 

So I am VERY concerned about overpenetration, which is why I believe a .223 (5.56mm) caliber is a more appropriate rifle caliber for my needs.  I do not need to make a 300 yard shot; I think 100 yards would the maximum.  Therefore, the carbine length?  Okay; scratch that.  I'm already deaf - don't need to make it worse.

 

Anyways, I would love to get an M1A, but not in 7.62mm.  

 

How about a Ruger Mini-14?  Just saw Hickock45 demonstrating one.

 

Anyways, good ideas!  Please keep them coming!  Thank you!

Edited January 2, 2013 by Bassman17SC

[tnhawk]

What underfunded, forgotten unit were you in that still had A-1's?

I trained with and carried the M14 on the DMZ in Korea.  If my M1A can't get the job done, I'm in trouble.

Edited January 2, 2013 by tnhawk

[Jonnin]

I've been hesitating to to get a rifle for a while now.

 

1. I live in a neighborhood cul-de-sac on a 1/3 acre lot. 

2. Our house is only front side brick; the other three sides are "brick-to-grade" and vinyl.

3. Not really a fan of ARs.

 

So, while I qualified "Expert" three years with the M16A1 rifle in the Army, I would rather have a different type rifle.  While I really would like a S/A M1A, the .308 (7.62mm) would be a little too large a caliber for my needs.  Therefore, I've concluded that a .223 (5.56mm) would be more appropriate for a home defense rifle.

 

On the other hand, I don't know beans about rifles in general and specific brands in particular.

 

I've seen references to the M1 Carbine (Auto Ordnance, I believe), the Mini-14 (Ruger), and a few others as alternatives to the AR platform.  But recently I found the MR1 by Benelli.  It comes in 5.56mm barrel, rear aperture/front post sights, a rail for optics, and has the option for a pistol grip - or not.  And most AR/M16 mags will fit (comes standard with a 5-rounder).

 

1. Do I really need a rifle?  Currently own an 870 20 gauge, a Sig P226, and two 1911s.

2. Anyone have experience with the MR1, since it is not on the "leaked" banned rifle list?  (I know, the list is from 1994, and the MR1 did not come out until 2009).

 

Thanks to all for any advice, help, and recommendations.

 

Mini-14 is a nice gun, but they can be troublesome to get accurate at longer ranges, use a different magazine, and its difficult to swap mags (its a post and hole deisgn, and takes a LOT of practice to do it fast).  

 

Ban list aside, *any* .223 or 556 semi auto rifle is going to be fubared by any law that passes -- no matter what it is, not matter what it looks like, etc. 

 

Have you considered a 9mm carbine?  Out of a longer barrel, the ballistics of the round is much improved and makes an *excellent* range gun that uses inexpensive ammo and is also quite good for home defense. 

 

You do not need a rifle for home defense IMHO.  While a powerful weapon, its very loud indoors and too big to manuver as well as you might like.  I think you should get one, before they are banned if you want it, but IMHO a big pistol is the best for inside a typical home -- your 1911 is perfect.

[Oh Shoot]

Therefore, the carbine length?  Okay; scratch that.  I'm already deaf - don't need to make it worse..  

 

How about a Ruger Mini-14?  Just saw Hickock45 demonstrating one.

 

All length ARs are plenty loud enough to damage hearing without ear protection, especially in a closed space.

 

Min-14 is fine rifle, but  just as loud as any AR of same barrel length.

 

- OS

[mikegideon]

I've owned a Mini 14 for years. There is absolutely no good reason to choose it over the AR platform unless you just like the cosmetics. It's plenty reliable, but has more muzzle rise, mag changes are fiddly, it's harder to maintain, etc. I like the Mini, but never shoot mine.

 

If an AR breaks, you can fix it quickly and easily, and don't have to go the the manufacurer to get parts. There is a laundry list of reasons for the popularity of the AR-15.

[jcj]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1357149728' post='874755']I've owned a Mini 14 ....... it's harder to maintain, etc. [/quote] Having just bought a Mini 30, I'm curious about this one. How so? I can see having to go back to Ruger for parts being problematic, but are the Minis somehow high maintenance?

[mikegideon]

Having just bought a Mini 30, I'm curious about this one. How so? I can see having to go back to Ruger for parts being problematic, but are the Minis somehow high maintenance?

 

Mine is, compared to an AR. If I shoot mine in damp weather, and then don't clean it after, the gas piston will rust shut. I have to do the garand stomp to break it loose. The stainless rifles don't have that problem. But, maybe that's another story.

 

The AR is designed to be serviced in the field. I don't worry about cleaning my AR's every time I shoot. When I do, it's simple and fast. You have to pull the barreled action out of the stock to do a full cleaning on a Mini. If you break a disconnector, or any other fire control part, you're screwed. The Mini just isn't a straight up alternative to the AR platform.

 

A Mini 30 is cool. I'm not really bashing them... just calling them for what they are. I'm not about to sell my Mini, but won't give it equal footing with my AR's when it come

[Oh Shoot]

Having just bought a Mini 30, I'm curious about this one. How so? I can see having to go back to Ruger for parts being problematic, but are the Minis somehow high maintenance?

 

I think he meant parts only by the statement.

 

IMO (and most others), a Mini is likely to run longer dirty than the average direct impingement AR. It's also less finicky about ammo than many ARs.

 

Reliability is its strong suit.

 

About the only gotcha I know of with the Mini is that put up dirty, the operating slide can stick to the gas piston nub over time. Solution is to store it dirty with bolt open. Or give it the Garand stomp if it sticks.

 

- OS

 

edit: ah, I see Mike and I were talking at same time, sorry for putting words in his mouth. (I didn't get the "new post" notice while I was typing).

 

Mike, I don't think the damp weather has anything to do with it, just the crud around piston itself? Never heard the "damp" claim before.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[mikegideon]

Well... looks like the site is still broken.