PRINTING (Not What You Think)!

[Dennis1209]

This is unbelievable?

 

I was watching the Nashville news this morning and I thought they were joking! The newscasters we're almost in a panic and wondering out loud how the government is going to legislate printing?

 

Evidently, for between $500.00 - $1,000.00 you can buy a "printer" on the Internet that will "print" anything. It is only limited to the programs you can get off the Internet.

 

They showed an actual test fire of an AR-15 that was "printed", actually printed from a printer! It fired six (6) actual rounds before it broke. They showed a couple of other items being actually "printed" tiny layer by layer.

 

Anyone know or seen this technology yet and know the particulars?

[DaveTN]

I know a little about it, we have looked at it for fast prototyping. You can make whatever you want out of plastic. I don’t know how affordable it is.

 

I wonder if those people that get so upset know that many of us have the ability to make our own AR lower and it won’t beak after a few rounds.

 

Here is a video we watched of them printing a 3D Crescent Wrench....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFRVlAGupeI

Edited December 30, 2012 by DaveTN

[R_Bert]

It is called "3D" printing.  Search for "3D Printing AR-15" and you will find numerous hits.

 

Later generation 3D printers can easily produce a viable gun receiver.  Oak Ridge National Lab has versions that will work in ceramics, composites, and metals.  Many public access "maker shops" have significant capabilities. 

[R_Bert]

I know a little about it, we have looked at it for fast prototyping. You can make whatever you want out of plastic. I don’t know how affordable it is.

 

I wonder if those people that get so upset know that many of us have the ability to make our own AR lower and it won’t beak after a few rounds.

This.

 

Considering that adolescents in various 'Stans make them (and numerous other designs), it must not be overly complicated...

[Guest bkelm18]

3D printing has acutally been around for a while, but it's just now becoming affordable and viable for public use. It's actually quite interesting.

[Moped]

I can't see people making actual ARs with these though.  Seems to me the better weapon to make with these type printers would be small automatic pistols.  I bet a low powered semi-automatic pistol in say .32acp and below would last far longer than 6 rounds.  Seems to me that these would still need metal springs and firing pins to work properly.

[vontar]

Moped, I trend to agree with you on some required metal parts, of course the media wouldn't talk about that.

[mikegideon]

Rapid prototyping has been coming for awhile. I saw it in circuit boards first. Those are simply a baby CNC mill that mills out a negative image of the copper layer. Time is always money in a design cycle. You beat on a design for weeks (or months), rush to get your final art files in the email, and then W...A...I...T for your boards to show up from the vendor. Hitting the send button on that email is always a white knuckle experience.

 

If the design requires heavy prototype testing, you could wind up going thru that cycle a few times. Expensive gear, but can be worth it.

 

AFIK, 3d will only make functional parts when low strenght is required. If it needs to be steel, you probably can't print it. 

[DaveTN]

I can't see people making actual ARs with these though.  Seems to me the better weapon to make with these type printers would be small automatic pistols.  I bet a low powered semi-automatic pistol in say .32acp and below would last far longer than 6 rounds.  Seems to me that these would still need metal springs and firing pins to work properly.

 
 

Moped, I trend to agree with you on some required metal parts, of course the media wouldn't talk about that.

You still need to have the ability to make a model. Some one that has the skills to make a 3D model that will work will probably have access to better machines than 3D printers to make it.

I don’t see why the newscasters would be a panic about how this technology would be legislated. We make aerospace parts and have machines far more capable than these printers for making guns. So why don’t we do it? Two reasons, one is that whether you make a functional gun with conventional CNC machining, manual machining, or a 3D printer, if you don’t have a license to make them the BATF will arrest you and throw you in jail if you transfer them.

Secondly you cheap azz guns owners won’t pay enough to have a custom gun billet machined.

[mikegideon]

 
 

Secondly you cheap azz guns owners won’t pay enough to have a custom gun billet machined.

 

They do (did) it on American Guns. We call those folks idiots :)

[DaveTN]

Rapid prototyping has been coming for awhile. I saw it in circuit boards first. Those are simply a baby CNC mill that mills out a negative image of the copper layer. Time is always money in a design cycle. You beat on a design for weeks (or months), rush to get your final art files in the email, and then W...A...I...T for your boards to show up from the vendor. Hitting the send button on that email is always a white knuckle experience.

 

If the design requires heavy prototype testing, you could wind up going thru that cycle a few times. Expensive gear, but can be worth it.

 

AFIK, 3d will only make functional parts when low strenght is required. If it needs to be steel, you probably can't print it. 

I don’t know too many people that are using it for functional parts, but I guess you could if it uses the material you need. Mainly it would be used for inspection and set-up. I would like to have that ability so I could write a program for doing a first article CMM inspection without having a finished production part. It could also be used for visual pre-approval.

 

Yes, 3D printing and rapid prototyping has been around for years, but not with the ability to turn the screw on that wrench and have the jaw move.  I called BS the first time I saw that, but they assure me it can be done. That is amazing.

 

Our stuff is too big. Some of our components are 10 feet long.

[DaveTN]

They do (did) it on American Guns. We call those folks idiots :)

I was thinking that someone would say that as I typed it.

[mikegideon]

Integrating moving parts is a software (and processing horsepower) thing. It's still just assembling 2D slices, right?

[DaveTN]

Integrating moving parts is a software (and processing horsepower) thing. It's still just assembling 2D slices, right?

It had to create an air gap around a spindle.

[LI0NSFAN]

A place in Michigan allowed you to bring in items to "print" so they could test teh limits of there new toy. A guy from my work brought in a gun and had a replica printed. I t looked exactly like the original and it felt just like ABS plistic. I have heard of people taking there wood stocks for a 22 and have plastic ones mad and used them with no issue.

[DaveTN]

A place in Michigan allowed you to bring in items to "print" so they could test teh limits of there new toy. A guy from my work brought in a gun and had a replica printed. I t looked exactly like the original and it felt just like ABS plistic. I have heard of people taking there wood stocks for a 22 and have plastic ones mad and used them with no issue.

Those items had to be reverse engineered to create a model. How did they do that while you wait?

[Moped]

They tear the firearm apart and scan each part in 3D.  They've been able to do that for years now.  You know, I wouldn't mind a plastic or polymer frame for a 1911a1.  That could be kind of cool!  I wouldn't be transferring it. 

Edited December 30, 2012 by Moped

[mikegideon]

It had to create an air gap around a spindle.

A spindle can be modeled with flat slices. So can a cyclindrical air gap (negative). It's a lot easier to do in Solid Works than noodling up an XYZ geometry file with a pencil. That's why I'm guessing that the software was a big part of the major improvement. Need to read up on the process. Maybe a thin substrate layer on each slice that holds the free parts in place until lamination is complete? That could be taken away with a hot air blast or solvent. 

[enfield]

Look up laminated object manufacturing (LOM) and stereolithography. I used both 15-20 years ago to make prototype parts. Still have a LOM oil pan that I kept as a souvenir. Both processes must be obsolete by now but were common engineering tools in their day.

[mikegideon]

This sure is a geeky thread for a cranky old bunch of gun nuts :).

[JayC]

Those items had to be reverse engineered to create a model. How did they do that while you wait?

 

They had 3D scanners now...  sit a part down and the computer scans it in and builds a 3d model for you...  A little bit of clean up and you're done.

 

They have them for CNC machines as well, you'd be shocked how well they work :)

[Caster]

Sounds like a lot of silly crap for nothing. 6 rounds? Really? Well, I'm assuming people are seeing this for either criminal activity or for a source of weapons to be used for resistance/insurrection. Well, go ahead. I heap rather go to the steel rack at Lowes and spend $50 and build a crude firearm that will last for thousands of rounds.

[DaveTN]

This sure is a geeky thread for a cranky old bunch of gun nuts :).

 

 

[Liam Neeson voice ON] But a bunch of cranky old gun nuts with a very particular set of skills; skills we have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make us a nightmare for people like you. [Liam Neeson voice OFF]

[tyguy]

We use a late model 3d printer where I work for rapid prototyping. One of the first test pieces off of it was the famous cresent wrench...and it does work. Basically anything u can model up in solidworks can be printed. This is the second generation that we've used, with the next step to be a metal sintering type. The printed plastic is cheap and fast for prototyping parts, but we also print small, wearable pieces for jigs and fixtures.

As far as outcry for misuse.....there's probably more fear to be had from the chemicals under your kitchen sink.

[Dolomite_supafly]

It is perfectly legal for ANYONE to make ANY gun they want provided they are allowed to own the weapon they made. A person can make a semiautomatic rifle or pistol and not break the law provided they are allowed to own them. They can make a bolt action rifle or shotgun and be well within the law. And it doesn't matter how or what was used to make those guns.

 

I can walk out into my garage, make a gun and it is perfectly legal even though I do not have a license to manufacturer firearms. And after it is made I can actually sell it if when I made it I didn;t intend to sell it. The key isintent to sell it when it was made. Those that are manufacturing weapons for resale rarely do one or two. Most people who makes guns for themselves rarely make more than a couple a year. Yet those who intend to sell them will make dozens or more. And that is where it is easy to prove intent. Now if people began making with the intent to sell receivers made on the 3d printer they would need a manufacturers license. But if they are making them for themselves, initiall, they are perfectly legal.

 

Somethng a lot of these AR guys are unaware of is if they buy a stripped receiver and build a firearm with intent of resale they MUST have a manufacturers license. A regular FFL is not enough to be able to do that either. There have been a dealer or two in my area that had the ATF visit them for building AR's from receivers and selling them as completed firearms. And I know there have been a lot of dealers at the shows recently sitting there building complete firearms from stripped receivers. They are probably going to find themselves in some hot water especially considering they are doing it out in the open for all the world to see.

 

And something else, any gun that is made by an individual does NOT have to have a serial number although it will probably keep LE from going crazy. But by law if a gun doesn;t have a serial number it is not required to have one but if a gun has one it cannot be removed, altered or obliterated.

 

Dolomite