unarmed assault?

[Guest dotsun]

Since taking my ccw class I've been wondering about what my lethal force rights are if I were attacked by an unarmed person. The following section of TN code leads me to believe that I would have to meet force with force. Ie. I'd have to defend myself without using a firearm unless the guy was comparatively huge or there were multiple attackers. They really need to translate this stuff into stupid so that I can understand exactly where the line is.

TN Code:

(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another person when and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The person must have a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury must be real, or honestly believed to be real at the time, and must be founded upon reasonable grounds. There is no duty to retreat before a person threatens or uses force.

[Guest Archimedes]

In my carry class, I seem to recall the instructor saying something about "one step farther."

If a guy comes at you unarmed, you can use a knife.

If a guy comes at you with a knife, you can use a gun.

I'm not sure how accuate that is or if I even remember correctly, but that's what I recall.

~Archi

[TGO David]

I highly suggest everyone own a copy of John Harris' book Carrying A Handgun For Self Defense In Tennessee. It has a chapter that covers this issue.

The short of what Mr. Harris says in the book is that...

Tennessee's Common Law Right of Self Defense does not require that the aggressor be armed with a gun, a knife or other weapon before deadly force, including the use of a firearm, would be justified. The common law recognized that even the relative size of the parties involved must be taken into account to determine whether one of them might be justified in using deadly force, including a firearm, against the other. Each factual situation must be separately evaluated in light of the specific facts and circumstances involved:

Where great bodily violence is being inflicted, or threatened, upon a person, by one much stronger and heavier, with such determined energy that the person being assaulted may reasonably apprehend death or great bodily injury, he is justifiable in using a deadly weapon against his assailant. It makes no difference whether the bodily violence is being, or about to be, inflicted with a club, or a rock, or with the fists of an overpowering adversary of superior strength and size.

Bitner v. State

, 130 Tenn. 144, 157, 158, 169 S.W. 565, 568 (1914)

That is a direct quote from Mr. Harris' book. He is an attorney, I am not, so therefore I would defer to his understanding of the law and furthermore seek out the assistance of a licensed lawyer for additional interpretation or insight into this matter.

Void where prohibited, blah blah blah.

[Guest dotsun]

Nice quote, I'll have to see if I can find his book. Going through things in my somewhat feeble mind, I find that situation troubling. BG with a weapon or multiple attackers seems pretty cut and dried, but 1 guy just wanting to beat me up? That's a bit more clouded.

[TGO David]

but 1 guy just wanting to beat me up? That's a bit more clouded.

And I'm sure it would be more clouded in court too. That situation would probably come down to who has the best lawyer.

[Guest J.York]

Will it matter if you're dead? If you are in fear of losing your life then it is justified. Whether or not you go to prison is up to a jury of your peers.

[Guest dotsun]

No J it won't matter if you're dead, but I'd like to know where the law falls on this issue. Where the law stands as well as case law on the issue may greatly determine how that jury would rule. I mean the choice may well come down to risking a hand to hand fight hoping that if you do lose and become incapacitated the BG will stop his said beating before you're maimed or killed, or pull your gun and risk going to jail for 20+ years.

Or maybe I'm just being overanalytical about the whole thing as I haven't been in a fight since HS, anyway.

[jgrauman]

i would say you really need to think about the situations that would cause you to "fear for your life." i'll be honest and tell you that i've been in a fist fight while carrying and never once thought about reaching for my pistol. never came to mind because the situation i was in never crossed into me fearing for my life. just so everybody doesn't flame me, i can't go into details, but it was two against one, me being the one, and i did everything i could to avoid the fight. they were wasted and one shoved a girl i was with so that was crossing the line for me. anyway, my point being, as every coach i've ever had has said, visualize the situation. know what you are going to do before you do it. of course there are goign to be situations you can't imagine, but you can imagine the situations that your life would be threatened and know what you are going to do. could i have shot both these guys under TN law, sure, one of them was huge, the other, not so much, but it was two against one and they were drunk and belligerent. and the way they were acting, i doubt it was their first time causing trouble. i'm sure a jury would have not had a problem seeing i felt threatend with "great bodily injury..." Did i fear for my life, no. they were visable unable to control their movements and i had been keeping an eye on them for a while. did all this go through my mind the second i saw these two idiots, yes! i was carrying, these thoughts HAVE to be going through your head, it's your responsibility. I had a long time ago decided my perception of fearing for my life. is this fool proof? no. the only time i've ever feared for my life was in a car accident, so i can't imagine every situation, but you can prepare yourself mentaly for a lot of them. it's going to be a personal decision that will change in degree from one person to another. sorry for the long post, hope this wasn't just ramblings

[Guest dotsun]

No I don't think you're rambling. It makes me think that I'm not just being overanalytical and perhaps I should consider the what-if scenarios so I can be better prepared if they do occur.

[Guest db99wj]

A fist to fist can be considered non life threating or life threatening, the intent might be just to kick your butt! Then would deadly force be justified?

In the Memphis paper there is a section on crimes in the paper, they will talk about the shooting the night before, this is an everyday event in Memphis by the way, and it will always say an altercation and one party left and came back with a gun. Because of that, seems like you could justify that deadly force was justified because of other cases that a fight or altercation lead to someone coming back and shooting. Interesting situation and something to think about.

I for one don't care to fight anyone, not going to be in situations where that would happen, what makes me concerned is the "traffic" scenario. Where you are in a fender bender and "road rage" charlie comes after you or the car jacking, which we have a bunch of those things that happen, and that law where deadly force would be justified.

If it happens, my advice is get a good lawyer!

[Guest Phantom6]

Fighting is not high on my list of things I wish to do eather but if as you said

this is an everyday event in Memphis by the way, and it will always say an altercation and one party left and came back with a gun.

and someone does come back with a gun then I'm reasonably sure at that point that I am in fear for my life. As a matter of fact I'd be willing to swear to it in a court of law.

On the other hand I have a friend who is a USA SpecFor Major. He is all of 5'9" and 170 lbs and when he tells you he is going to rip your head off with his bare hands and perminantly constipate your ass with it I absolutely believe him. Because I am aware of his training I would be absolutely correct in using deadly force against him in an attack. Certainly would be easier to prove imminant fear of serious bodily harm or death if Dan were 6'6'' and 269 lbs. We've known each other since high school and even worked together but either way I will never speak ill of his mother or make fun of the way he shoots pool when drunk.

db99wj wrote:

If it happens, my advice is get a good lawyer!

If you wait until you need one you are behind the curve my man. Get your attorney lined up now before you need one. Everyone that carries a gun needs to have a good attorney's phone number memorized or at least have their business card in their wallet. He or she should be a criminal defense attorney that (even better) is a PBA attorney and specializes in shooting cases.

[towerclimber37]

hey phantom!

I just saw your quote!

do you read the blog "the lawdog files"?

he said just about the same thing as your quote...and he said don't say nuttin till your attorney gets there to get you out of jail, or gets to the house.

thats the FIRST call you should make...the second should be to the police.

thats just my opinion though.

[Guest db99wj]

Fighting is not high on my list of things I wish to do eather but if as you said

and someone does come back with a gun then I'm reasonably sure at that point that I am in fear for my life. As a matter of fact I'd be willing to swear to it in a court of law.

On the other hand I have a friend who is a USA SpecFor Major. He is all of 5'9" and 170 lbs and when he tells you he is going to rip your head off with his bare hands and perminantly constipate your ass with it I absolutely believe him. Because I am aware of his training I would be absolutely correct in using deadly force against him in an attack. Certainly would be easier to prove imminant fear of serious bodily harm or death if Dan were 6'6'' and 269 lbs. We've known each other since high school and even worked together but either way I will never speak ill of his mother or make fun of the way he shoots pool when drunk.

db99wj wrote:

If you wait until you need one you are behind the curve my man. Get your attorney lined up now before you need one. Everyone that carries a gun needs to have a good attorney's phone number memorized or at least have their business card in their wallet. He or she should be a criminal defense attorney that (even better) is a PBA attorney and specializes in shooting cases.

Them coming back with a gun, of course, your life is in danger. My point and my scenario is and seems to be something used as a defense, is that in todays world, because of all the news storys, that if you get in a fight, there is a high chance that your life is in danger. There are no fist fights anymore. And that force with a handgun could be argued and could and should be justified.

All that, that I posted is what goes through my mind alot, scenario's, what if's, what next type things. I don't go to bars, don't go to clubs, don't really go to places where that would be a problem (I'm not immune to it, but I stay away from those situations), I have read alot lately about a party that gets out of hand, a fight breaks out and then someone comes back with a gun. Like I mentioned, the traffic thing is one of the things that I am most concerned about, traffic, in the city anyway, seems that everyone is on edge and you are close to a boiling point, especially at rush hour. I am more aware at these times, not to say that I am unaware other, but traffic scares me. The car jackings, the bump and rob scenarios, road rage. People are doing crazy things in traffic these days, and that is the most dangerous situation that I ever get in.

I like the saying, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

As far as the attorney thing, I know someone.....well lets just say, got that covered.

Disclaimer: Not a lawyer, don't claim to be one on TV, get one, get a good one and blah blah blah as Tungsten said!

[towerclimber37]

Db, thats the best way to be... I'm of the opinion that (I believe I said this before somewhere else here) laws are a finite attempt to describe (or proscribe) an infinite set of situations and human actions...

when you ask yourself was man made for the law? or was the law made for man?

I would guess that the situation you're in would bias the answer to the above question.

I am NOT a lawyer...but I do have common sense and have never needed a lawyer.

Everytime I hear something, or see something going on, I remember my Grandmother...she lived to be 104. I asked her once when she was in her 90s' "Grandma, how did you get to be so old?".

she replied " I mind my own business and make sure others do the same."

that one bit of wisdom has kept me out of some rough situations!

[Guest Phantom6]

hey phantom!

I just saw your quote!

do you read the blog "the lawdog files"?

he said just about the same thing as your quote...and he said don't say nuttin till your attorney gets there to get you out of jail, or gets to the house.

thats the FIRST call you should make...the second should be to the police.

thats just my opinion though.

Never read the blog. I would submit that the only thing that should be said to the police when they arrive is the following:

"I want my attorney. I was in fear for my life. Please take me to the hospital I feel terribly ill." (BTW, don't worry about the expense of the ambulance or ER. You are in police custody and it's on the jurisdictions' dime)

If at all possible, I would dial 911 prior to when the shooting starts from my cell and leave the line open so that the recording equipment would pick up the sound of the event. Sounds like Oh, help me Jesus, he's got a knife.. No man don't.. Get back! No! Bang, Bang, Bang! Just remember that the line is being recorded and after it's all over don't jump up and down shouting "I got the S.O.B. That'll teach his raggedity ass to f*** with an expert like me!" If that's not possible (the prior cell phone call that is) then call the law first. As for me, I want them to have some idea of the good guy description (white guy, mid fifties, looks vaguely like Santa without the red suit, backed up against the wall hoping that the brother of the jerk in the face down position is not in the gathering crowd) when they arrive. Keep your attacker covered and stay well clear of him/her. As the law pulls up, lay your firearm down, step well away from it while keeping your hands high and visible then simply comply with the commands of the officer(s). Then begin your mantra- "I want my attorney. I was in fear for my life. Please take me to the hospital I feel terribly ill."

db99wj wrote:

All that, that I posted is what goes through my mind alot, scenario's, what if's, what next type things.

Good thinking. Everyone, whether they carry a pistol or not, but especially if they are carrying should do this. Mental preparation is a good portion of the battle in dealing with anything. It keeps you out of inescapable corners, out of bad situations and out of harm's way. Should you find yourself there then you are already executing your plan. You are ahead of the curve.

[Marswolf]

I suspect you will probably be in trouble if you shoot an unarmed man. You may be acquitted, but I'll bet you go to court unless you end up in the hospital from his attack.

That being said, guns are only one aspect of self protection. You need to know other ways to protect yourself.

[Guest Phantom6]

I suspect you will probably be in trouble if you shoot an unarmed man. You may be acquitted, but I'll bet you go to court unless you end up in the hospital from his attack.

That being said, guns are only one aspect of self protection. You need to know other ways to protect yourself.

Hey, my gun should be a last resort and you are no doubt correct that I would probably be ending up in court if I shoot an unarmed attacker but if I have to go hands on and end up on the down hill side of the altercation with a guy trying to rip my adams apple from my throat I'm going straight to plan "G".

[Guest Archimedes]

...guns are only one aspect of self protection. You need to know other ways to protect yourself.

Well, I've had my share of hockey scraps.

If a guy comes at me on skates with a long stick, I'll be ready!!!!

~Archi

[robbiev]

In my carry class, I seem to recall the instructor saying something about "one step farther."

If a guy comes at you unarmed, you can use a knife.

This is not necessarily true. If you use a knife against another person, it's still deadly force. You have to be able to justify the use of deadly force, regardless of what type of instrument you use to inflict the force. Basically, deadly force is defined by the result, not by the instrument used to obtain the result, so it depends on the situation.

Also, saying "don't come one step closer" does not necessarily justify deadly force. Again, it depends on the situation. Also, on the flip side, it is not "required" by any law that you must say this (many people think it's required).

[Marswolf]

Hopefully you have a DA with some common sense and who values the concept of self protection. That depends a lot on the politics of the community. If that isn't true, I wouldn't live or vacation there.

Guns are great equalizers and not everyone has the time, money, or ability to become an expert in martial arts. But it is handy to at least learn a few blows and throws.

Quick story. I'm not a big guy. 5'-8", 175# today. Back when I started college, I was less than 110#. Skinny little thing. I went out with a girl one night and her ex-boyfriend came up on us drunk as...well a UT athletic student - which he was. Big drunk guy. He was upset that I'm out with his girl (he hadn't learned the meaning of "get lost" yet). So he pulls out a knife and makes a swing at me.

Unfortunately for me, he managed to take a nice slice out of my left wrist, but missed any major veins. This upset me.

I started learning martial arts from a book when I was 14 years old. Used to do one weapon per summer just for fun. One year it was hands and feet. He didn't know that. He also didn't know that my roommate was a 3rd degree black belt in Karate who regularly beat me up (we called it practice) because I wanted to learn more.

So...I'm upset about being in pain and bleeding on the sidewalk under the pedestrian bridge over the strip. I didn't even have a knife with me. Someone called the campus cops and they arrived in time to take me to the hospital to get my hand sewed up (12 stitches) and my attacker also to the hospital to wire up his jaw that I had broken in two places. As I said - I was upset.

As you get older, you look like more of an easy victim. You need to learn to protect yourself. Body language helps keep you from looking like a victim. So does knowing how to do a few throws, blows and breaks without a weapon. Knife fighting techniques help and a concealed handgun helps a lot. A whole lot. But regardless of whether you are in full tacticool gear or naked, you should have some idea about and some skills on how to protect yourself.

If they have a knife or gun, they are getting shot - dead, unless I'm having a bad motor reflex day. I am in fear of my life. They get to be dead so they don't put anyone else in fear of their life. At that point, you need to know how to handle the legalities as others have mentioned above.

This is a really good topic.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

I would say that you could win a losing battle without deadly force. Even if you had to use a stick, or a 2x4! I truely believe that I could win a hand to hand fight with my 2 fists. But would not hesitate to get me a big stick or whatever is close by at the time!

[TGO David]

Quick story. I'm not a big guy. 5'-8", 175# today. Back when I started college, I was less than 110#. Skinny little thing. I went out with a girl one night and her ex-boyfriend came up on us drunk as...well a UT athletic student - which he was. Big drunk guy. He was upset that I'm out with his girl (he hadn't learned the meaning of "get lost" yet). So he pulls out a knife and makes a swing at me.

I learned a long time ago that it's those small guys you've got to worry about.

A mutual friend of a friend in highschool was a local amateur boxer at the Boys Club. Kid came from the wrong side of town, but was one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet. Also one of the most dangerous to pick on. And FAST... oh my God was he fast.

I watched him try to defuse a situation several times one night at the shopping mall where all of us hung out. A much larger black guy had picked Rocky out of the crowd (honest to God that's his name) because he was small and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Black guy started mouthing off, then start pushing and shoving him. Rocky gave him fair warning at least a half dozen times to leave him alone. Black guy wouldn't have any of it, and kept pushing.

The way Rocky tore him apart was part artwork, part sheer brutality. He wore that guy's head and ribs out like a speed bag in the span of mere seconds. I seriously think he hit him more than 20 times in before the big black guy knew he'd even been hit the first time. He went down like a felled tree as soon as Rocky stopped hitting him.

Pretty much all of us who witnessed it learned two really valuable lessons. Small guys can really whip your ass big time, and when Rocky told you to stop, you'd be smart to do it.

[Guest jackdog]

Current health situation would make hand to hand combat a death sentence for me. Heart rate goes way up defibrillator starts firing(took 6 hits about a year ago from this thing) motor control is gone after hit one. So For me the gun would be one of my only options. Want my lawyer, was in fear of my life, think you better get me to the hospital. Hope it works out in my favor in court. 4 or 5 years ago broken knee cap, ruptured spleen, crushed larynx, but this could also end up with me at trail, due to past military history. Avoidance of bad situations is your best defense when and if possible.

This is an excellent topic to discuss

[Guest db99wj]

Hopefully you have a DA with some common sense and who values the concept of self protection. That depends a lot on the politics of the community. If that isn't true, I wouldn't live or vacation there.

Guns are great equalizers and not everyone has the time, money, or ability to become an expert in martial arts. But it is handy to at least learn a few blows and throws.

Quick story. I'm not a big guy. 5'-8", 175# today. Back when I started college, I was less than 110#. Skinny little thing. I went out with a girl one night and her ex-boyfriend came up on us drunk as...well a UT athletic student - which he was. Big drunk guy. He was upset that I'm out with his girl (he hadn't learned the meaning of "get lost" yet). So he pulls out a knife and makes a swing at me.

Unfortunately for me, he managed to take a nice slice out of my left wrist, but missed any major veins. This upset me.

I started learning martial arts from a book when I was 14 years old. Used to do one weapon per summer just for fun. One year it was hands and feet. He didn't know that. He also didn't know that my roommate was a 3rd degree black belt in Karate who regularly beat me up (we called it practice) because I wanted to learn more.

So...I'm upset about being in pain and bleeding on the sidewalk under the pedestrian bridge over the strip. I didn't even have a knife with me. Someone called the campus cops and they arrived in time to take me to the hospital to get my hand sewed up (12 stitches) and my attacker also to the hospital to wire up his jaw that I had broken in two places. As I said - I was upset.

As you get older, you look like more of an easy victim. You need to learn to protect yourself. Body language helps keep you from looking like a victim. So does knowing how to do a few throws, blows and breaks without a weapon. Knife fighting techniques help and a concealed handgun helps a lot. A whole lot. But regardless of whether you are in full tacticool gear or naked, you should have some idea about and some skills on how to protect yourself.

If they have a knife or gun, they are getting shot - dead, unless I'm having a bad motor reflex day. I am in fear of my life. They get to be dead so they don't put anyone else in fear of their life. At that point, you need to know how to handle the legalities as others have mentioned above.

This is a really good topic.

Great post, and yes a great topic! and remember there is no such thing as a fair fight.

Tungsten, I knew a guy similar to your friend Rocky, but he was about 5'4" and 150lbs but he liked to fight and he was a SEAL and not a boxer, ok the only similar point was that they were small and quick! I watched him do what Rocky did, hit the guy what seemed like a hundred times and dropped them to the ground!

[Guest dotsun]

I'm glad I brought the topic up now, I'm enjoying the various points of view. Pick on a boxer named Rocky, not smart...