Price police??

[Steelharp]

Maybe they weren't the "honorable" ones. There was a retired Marine on FB in a gun group that was having to sell his old M-1 Carbine because of a dire financial situation. I made the suggestion that the group (200+) each send him $10 to help him out, and allow him to keep his treasure. It took off, and the group came through. So, the group has it's very own M-1, and he is the "steward."

[TMF]

I would suspect these "price police" are some of the same people who lowball any reasonable asking price and/or list their own items at the top of the market.  Let me be clear, I have gotten some fair prices for items I have purchased through TGO, but I have yet to lay my eyes on any firearm listed well below it's fair market value.  In fact, the common advise on this site for new sellers has been to look at GunBroker and other outlets to get a decent idea of what fair market price is for your item and price it accordingly.  If some people don't like that a P-Mag that was going for $12 a couple of months ago is now going for double or triple that today, tough luck.  I don't like it any more than anyone else, but don't expect me to not get the best price possible just to make YOU feel better.  How many times have we heard people talk about the SKS they bought for $99 a few years ago and now ask $300 plus for it today?  How about those $400 AK rifles that now go for $700 or more?  Is that greed or just doing business in the classic free market way?  I wonder, are these folks selling their own items at low prices out of the goodness of their hearts?  I seriously doubt it. 
I'm considering listing my underfolder AK with a bunch of mags and ammo to see if I can make a little bit of money and then use that for other stuff I would like to buy right now.  You darn well better believe that I'm not going to list it for what I paid for it when I can sell it for a small mint on GunBroker (although I won't ask those prices either to save me the hassle of going through GunBroker).  If people want to work a deal, great.  If they think I've asking too much, then they are free to pass.   It's not like I'm jacking up the price of food, medicine, or water, and any comparison between necessities of life like those and convenience/luxury items like an AK is disingenuous.
 
And yes, as someone else mentioned, this thread is revealing a lot about folks.  I think Obama would be proud of some of the anti-profiteering rhetoric going on here.  It's always interesting to see the beating that free-market ideas take when people don't like how the system works.  I don't sell stuff to help your wallet, I sell it to help mine.  If you don't like the price, don't buy it.  I heard this same rhetoric before the 1994 AWB and personally regretting not "panic buying" because I listened to all the people who said the AWB wouldn't happen.  Many of these people are the same ones that said Obama would never be re-elected.  Thanks, but I'll rely on my own judgement and if I'm wrong, too bad for me.  I find it puzzling that asking fair market price for an item is somehow dishonorable.
Incidentally, if any of you "honorable" folks have a vintage Colt Single Action Army, I'll be willing to pay you the full $34 retail price that it sold for originally.  I know that no "honorable" person would ever sell one of these for $1500 plus today and take advantage of poor buyer.
 
http://www.americanhandgunner.com/~hrank/ah/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/6a.jpg
 

I see your point. From my perspective there is a big difference between a person who is looking to sell at a fair market price and one who is looking to cash in on the panic. Perhaps there are some who were planning on selling a firearm anyway, and this just happens to be a matter of timing. Others who obviously scooped up a sh**load of lower receivers and Pmags when the CT shooting happened with the intention of selling them at a profit are slimy, subhuman scumbags and criminals to boot.

The ones taking advantage of this are probably of the mindset that prices will normalize soon, which is why they are gouging now. An unethical tactic, no matter what market you're dealing in. If there is a ban prices will go up for reasonable purposes, but right now there is no ban. Just a bunch of opportunists looking to cash in. It is really poor form or the type of people I'm used to dealing with in the gun owning community.

[Steelharp]

Incidentally, if any of you "honorable" folks have a vintage Colt Single Action Army, I'll be willing to pay you the full $34 retail price that it sold for originally.  I know that no "honorable" person would ever sell one of these for $1500 plus today and take advantage of poor buyer.
 

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/~hrank/ah/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/6a.jpg

 

You believe absurdity is the way to validate your point?

[D3vo]

I am free market all the way and that doesn't stop when it suits me.  It's protrayed as if we have members who don't know the price of a loaf of bread.  Even before this panic there have been firearms way over priced and they sit.  That is still the case today unless someone wants it bad.

 

TGO is not an open market?  I suspect the answer to that is it is an open market to the members who have paid to be Benefactors.

 

The first three words of most of the objections to name your own price were I don't think, I will not and I also hate.  All of these start with I.

 

It's between the buyer and seller and it's natural to form a member opinion based on firearm price.  I have some opinions of my own which stay my own.

[mcurrier]

I see your point. From my perspective there is a big difference between a person who is looking to sell at a fair market price and one who is looking to cash in on the panic. Perhaps there are some who were planning on selling a firearm anyway, and this just happens to be a matter of timing. Others who obviously scooped up a sh**load of lower receivers and Pmags when the CT shooting happened with the intention of selling them at a profit are slimy, subhuman scumbags and criminals to boot.

The ones taking advantage of this are probably of the mindset that prices will normalize soon, which is why they are gouging now. An unethical tactic, no matter what market you're dealing in. If there is a ban prices will go up for reasonable purposes, but right now there is no ban. Just a bunch of opportunists looking to cash in. It is really poor form or the type of people I'm used to dealing with in the gun owning community.

Unless you have a crystal ball, I don't think that there is any way to clearly say that someone is an unethical opportunist.  No one here knows what they paid for whatever they are selling.  You may think that you do, or think that you have a pretty good idea based on a sale you saw somewhere a month ago for the same item, but as has been pointed out, it really only matters what the buyer and the seller think.  All others need not apply.

[TMF]

[quote name="mcurrier" post="870721" timestamp="1356728354"]Unless you have a crystal ball, I don't think that there is any way to clearly say that someone is an unethical opportunist.  No one here knows what they paid for whatever they are selling.  You may think that you do, or think that you have a pretty good idea based on a sale you saw somewhere a month ago for the same item, but as has been pointed out, it really only matters what the buyer and the seller think.  All others need not apply.[/quote] I'm not condoning thread crapping, but when a person puts up a Bushmaster stock rifle (used) for $1400 only days after the tragedy in CT it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what's going on. Also, when someone is selling a gross of Pmags or a half dozen new stripped lowers for 3x price around the same time frame I don't need to be a forensic accountant to determine what the seller is doing. It is self evident. No crystal ball needed. Like I said, let your conscience be your guide. If that is something you feel comfortable doing, by all means, have at it. But if I was to sell one of my rifles or lowers at a good price only to see it marked up considerably days later, I'm calling the ATF.

[mikegideon]

 I'm calling the ATF.

Did I mention rules? :)

[Dolomite_supafly]

Anyone can be a member of the "price police" and voice their concerns to any seller. It is not against the rules, and never has been, to do so as long as it is done in private, in a respectful manner and does not influence his ad publically.

 

Benefactors can ask any price they want but ultimately it is the buyer who determines what an item will actually sell for. And it is the buyer who determines what the fair market value would be for a particular item, not the seller.

 

We are in some crazy times but 20 years ago no one would have thought a MAC11 would sell for $3,000 but they do. The price of things in demand, and in short supply, increase and that is how it has been as long as their has been an open market.

 

I personally would not use this tragedy to get rich and it only shows how uncompassionate some people are. Especially those who were selling stuff for an increased price before the bodies were probably even cold. I have not sold anything since the tragedy for more than what I was asking months ago. I could not, in my mind, use that tragedy for my personal gain.

 

Dolomite

[Rowdy]

What if this is the new normal? At what point down the road does it cease to be gouging? How long before we can sell to each other at these "new normal" prices. I'm a farmer, I'm used to wild swings in the prices of the things I sell. One day a bushel of corn is worth $7.50 per bushel the next it's $6.75, it's called a free market.

Very few people on here are in the gun business, most are in a gun hobby. Very few purchases are necessities. If its out of my budget I don't buy it.

One last thing, anyone who doesn't check market prices before buying isn't an informed buyer.

[partypilot1]

That's capitalism at its finest. Supply and demand. Nothing worse though than I guy raising a price on his pmags then turn around and bitch about gas prices rising during natural disasters. Fare is fare with market value. I do love the true honest person that maintains true market value during times of artificial inflation

[East_TN_Patriot]

You believe absurdity is the way to validate your point?

Why is that absurd?  You are arguing that it is "dishonorable" to sell your items for more than either 1) what they originally cost, or 2) more than what YOU think they should go for.  Using your own logic, if it's dishonest price gouging to sell a $12 P-Mag for a 200% profit, then selling a $35 revolver for a 4200% profit must be absolutely criminal.

If you want to talk about absurdity, it's suggesting that people selling their own property by listing them for what they believe are market prices is somehow dishonest.  Should people be forced to sell their gold at it's value 5 years ago before the market changes sparked "panic buying" that drove the gold price up?  What about all the people who post in the C&R forum all the time about "buying them cheap and stacking them deep" so that when the prices jump up, you can sell them for a profit?  Your logic just doesn't wash if you believe in free market economics. 

What this issue is really about is people being upset that the stuff that was cheap a month ago isn't cheap anymore due to changing political winds and concerns for what that means for the future price and availability of these items.  In a free market system, sellers can use this to raise the price, and consumers can decide if that price is justified based on their opinion of the market whether that price is justified.  You might say $40 for a P-Mag is criminal, but for someone who doesn't have any and is now afraid they will not be able to obtain them in the future at any price, then $40 is a fair price. Clearly, if someone is misrepresenting an item and being deceptive or dishonest to get more than the item is actually worth on the market, then that is dishonorable and violates the ethics of free market economics.

Let me be clear on one thing.  I think most everyone who buys and sells on TGO is honest and fair in their transactions.  I have seen some items priced too high, and that's their prerogative.  It will sell, or it won't.  If it doesn't then the seller can lower the price or keep the item.  If a person gets a reputation for consistently overpricing their items or misrepresenting them, then they will not get the continued respect of buyers and will likely find themselves banned from TGO.  No dishonor, no unfairness, no brotherhood; nothing but business.  I've had fellow TGO members send me small parts for free and refuse to accept payment, and I try to return the favor when I can.  I've also paid top-of-the-market price for something because it's something I want and I think that the price is fair overall; not a bargain, but fair.  I just really don't get this price police crap.  If someone were to email me and berate me as being less than honest for my asking price for an honestly described item, they would be getting quite a passionate and unpleasant response from me.

Edited December 28, 2012 by East_TN_Patriot

[ProjectDexter]

The biggest thing about all this to me, is that it's such a false drought in the market. Manufacturers are not limiting production for the most part, it's just that there is more more more that people want. Ammo for instance, if the govt wasnt buying up BILLIONS of rounds there would not be such a limited supply.

The thing that erks me the most, is that by jacking up the prices, you are hurting the gun owners and what they stand for. Price gouging for rifles and magazines and ammo is not helping to arm people, specifically in a community setting like this, that can be useful allies if all hell were to break loose.

[TMF]

[quote name="East_TN_Patriot" post="870775" timestamp="1356732382"]I just really don't get this price police crap.  If someone were to email me and berate me as being less than honest for my asking price for an honestly described item, they would be getting quite a passionate and unpleasant response from me.[/quote] Rightfully so. I'd never berate someone for choosing to price gouge, but I'll remember their name in the future when it comes to buying or selling (just like CTD). The problem is there are folks that purchased items at the onset of his tragic event with the purpose of turning a profit. Last time I checked that is illegal to do with firearms; at the very least it is unethical. This is carpetbagger territory. Then there are the folks who had items sitting around that they decided to sell when the panic buying drove prices up. On the one hand I would call that unethical, on the other I would consider the folks dumb enough to pay those prices deserving to be parted with their money. At any rate, it comes down to how you feel about yourself after doing a transaction. If it makes you feel good that you scored a few extra bucks because a lunatic shot a bunch of kids in CT, then good for you. Don't expect to do business with me ever.

[plank white]

The part of all this that bothers me are the Overbuyers ...The ones who wait for the stores to open on shipping day and buy up all the magazines just to go sell them for 3 times what they paid while simultaneously screwing over everyone else who just wants to buy a couple mags... case in point went to academy asked if they had any mags got told no "We just got a whole shipment in but this one guy bought them all" Im sorry but if I wouldve seen 60 or so mags for sale i wouldve bought what I needed and moved on . why must everyone over buy with no reason except to overcharge? I cant change it so thats all my ranting as for the guys buying up all the AR and AK rifles and then turning around and selling them for triple the price ....Good luck with that ...Isnt that illegal? Not the price marking up part but the part about Buying with the intention of selling?

 

As for those who already have extra and just want to sell while the price is high big whoop go ahead . I just don't like the Overbuyers who buy with the express intent of reselling and Overcharging .

[TMF]

[quote name="plank white" post="870798" timestamp="1356733377"] I cant change it so thats all my ranting as for the guys buying up all the AR and AK rifles and then turning around and selling them for triple the price ....Good luck with that ...Isnt that illegal? Not the price marking up part but the part about Buying with the intention of .[/quote] If it is a firearm, it is illegal unless you have an FFL. I'm familiar with stories of folks buying out a store's stock of lowers and marking them up at 3x the price. Highly illegal and a generally sh**ty thing to do given the circumstances. Then again, people made money selling chunks of concrete and saying it was from the WTC. Open market, right? Buyer beware, right? Whatever helps folks sleep at night.

[nightrunner]

I imagine the ATF is keeping a pretty close eye on all the big gun classified sites.

Hopefully the people who bought with the intention of reselling to make 400%+ profit will hang themselves given enough rope and time. Edited December 28, 2012 by nightrunner

[mcurrier]

As for those who already have extra and just want to sell while the price is high big whoop go ahead . I just don't like the Overbuyers who buy with the express intent of reselling and Overcharging .

The fact is, there is NO way to tell the difference unless a person has detailed inside information about that seller and the particular item that he is selling at the moment, where he obtained it and how much he paid for it.  So there's no point at all in anyone whining about it.  Buy it or don't.  Otherwise, people are just making unverified accusations based mostly on emotion.  We all don't like how a lot of things operate.  Life goes on.  All that can be said to people whom this upsets is to make your lists of people you suspect of being gougers, exile them from your buying life and move on.

[runco]

Simply put, the BUYER determines the market.  Sellers can ask anything they want, I have absolutely nothing against any seller trying to set a market price, but the buyer determines what is a fair price at the end of day.  The buyers are what drives us cranky tight with our money people off the cliff.   Don't buy a $60 PMAG!  Hold out, be patient.  Don't be angry with the guy asking $60, be angry with the buyer that buys it! 

[DaveTN]

What about all the people who post in the C&R forum all the time about "buying them cheap and stacking them deep" so that when the prices jump up, you can sell them for a profit? 

Those people are criminals, as are the people running a part time gun business in the classifieds. We know who they are it wouldn’t take a real sharp BATF agent to figure out who they are. It happens all the time.
I wouldn’t be in a hurry to donate to their legal defense fund…. Would you?

[Sam1]

Not sure where you can draw the line; an old m1 garand cost about $100 each, but they sell for $2000 even before this craziness kicked in. I would think that a 2000% markup would be considered more of a gouge than a 200% markup. if the FMV of an item is driven up by a run, then that's just part of it, and if that seller loses future business because of how he conducted business during the "run", so be it.

 

But this is also a private site and there are no rights to anything here.

[Garufa]

It's getting pretty deep in here.

[TGO David]

As my Scottish relatives were prone to say... Jesus Murphy.  :wall:

 

I already posted about this elsewhere so I don't think we really need another thread about this.  Here's what I said then, and what I'm saying now as the "Official Word" on this topic, after which point I am closing the thread:

 

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/56695-when-is-it-going-to-be-ok-to-sale-magsammoand-ars-for-the-going-rate/#entry865843

 

 

So here's my take on this...
 
Something is only over-priced if it is above fair market value.  Right now the market will sustain quite a bit of markup over what it did last week.  If you're really wanting to part with some items that are in high demand right now, you would be silly not to ask the current going rate for them.
 
It doesn't matter if you are asking a fair price now or three weeks ago, someone out there is going to bitch because they want the best deal possible and feel like you somehow owe it to them to give them that deal.  Don't worry about that.
 
I would caution you against selling something today that you might not be able to replace again later, though.  Unless you're hurting for cash, I'd sit on those items and see what happens.  It could come to pass that you would end up really, really regretting it later.

 

 

Folks, tensions are high enough as is among the pro-2A community right now.  The last thing we need to do is start fighting among ourselves over pricing of things here or elsewhere.  Supply of previously plentiful items has dried up.  Retail prices have climbed.  Private sale prices have climbed.  Some pricing has climbed into the stratosphere.

 

If you were well stocked to begin with, you probably don't care.  If you weren't, then you probably do and you probably regret the lack of preparation and regret the high prices.  Hindsight is the mother of all bitches sometimes and this would definitely be one of them.  Were I short on ammo, short on mags or short on black rifles, I'd be a bit upset as well, but my anger would be directed at myself.  Trust me; there are a few rifles I'd still like to own and assumed I'd have plenty of time to pick them up in the future.  I'm kicking myself, but I'm not pissed at the world or pissed at the people who had more foresight than I did.

 

I don't even believe it is morally or ethically wrong for people to make a profit on these things now.  Why should it be?  It's no more wrong for them to do that than it is for me to turn a profit on shares of Apple, Inc. stock when the market is strong.  These things are all commodities at the end of the day, and right now it's a seller's market.

 

The truth hurts sometimes.  Sorry.

 

My advice for folks is to just band together the best we can and stop taking pot shots at people for "buying low and selling high".  It's their prerogative to do it, and frankly a lot of these people are going to feel like world class morons when the market tanks and they barely brake even... or worse yet Swinestein gets her way and bans the hell out of everything this side of a slingshot, and these fools suddenly realize that the $5,000 they pocketed selling that AR-15 isn't worth the now-irreplaceable AR-15 that they sold.

 

Hopefully some of these items will start reappearing in stores before Congress gets a chance to fuck us in 2013.  If you see a rifle or other item that you can afford in the stores between now and then, you'd be a complete fool not to jump on it.  You may not get that chance again if the assclowns our country has elected get their way.

 

 

 

/thread