Black powder shotgun, need help identifying.

[173rdABN]

Can someone help me with this please? I have no idea where to even start with this. It's my father-in-laws. I'm here for christmas and was talking to him about it. He said it has been in the family for years and years, and just sits on top of his fire place. I'd like to try and get a date of when it was made roughly, and maybe identify some markings. He's super interested in finding out some history about it, but is far from gun savvy. 

 

 

The top here says "REAL TWIST"

[Jonnin]

can be hard to tell.  Take the barrel off the wood, often marks found in there?

 

theres a very high chance its dangerous to fire the gun, the way the barrels were made on those can have internal failures, some sort of wire wrapped & melted process that can have internal rusting or something? 

 

A lot of googling can find you the proof marks examples of known gunsmiths.  Odds are its an import from england. 

 

I wish I had more, went down that road with mine and still not sure what I have after a lot of research.  Just not a lot of info out there.

[gregintenn]

In the next to last picture, are those some sort of folding express sights or what? Does it have a front bead or some sort of sight? What diameter are the barrel bores? They wouldn't by chance be rifled would they?

 

That's an interesting gun to me. I'd like to see the wood, front sight/bead, and buttplate. Wouldn't have a clue what to tell you it is, but would be interesting to see. Looks like a fairly high quality piece.

[Jonnin]

I am thinking take a sheet of paper and a crayon and try to do a rubbing of the side plates (under the hammers, the big plates with the designs in them) and the barell top towards the bore, to see if you can pick up any lettering.  Somewhere someone stamped their name on it, but where, and can you make it pop out enough to get a few letters....

 

that fold up sight system is very interesting and a clue... trying to find something from that angle.

 

I can just make out letters between the barrels behind the fireworks looking design.  Can you read those letters at all?

Edited December 26, 2012 by Jonnin

[peejman]

I have nothing to offer other than to say good luck.  I think digging up the history on old stuff like this is fascinating. 

[c.a.willard]

The E over LG with a star under it is a leige belgium proof mark from 1811-1892,  the fact that it says real twist in english indicates that it was made for sale in england if i were to hazard a guess id say its probably manufactured around 1840-1860.   Unfortunately during that time there were a lot of small manufacturers in Belgium so you may never know who made it.   In a few of the pictures there is a soft yellow ring would this by chance be inlayed gold.  The fact that it doesnt appear to have corrosion on those areas would indicate that it is actually gold inlay.  Typically that is only found on higher end guns from the time period. 

Edited December 26, 2012 by c.a.willard

[TripleDigitRide]

The term Real Twist indicates that the barrels are likely Damascus (twist-steel) and as someone else mentioned, are not safe to shoot.

There's little doubt that the shotty was made in Belgium and sold in England. Unfortunately, there were several manufacturers in that area, and unless you can do some real digging on the proof marks, you'll likely never know its true origins.

[173rdABN]

 

 

[173rdABN]

 

[173rdABN]

I took it apart again today to get more pictures. Here is everything I have. I wont fire it, no worries there! Never even crossed my mind. 

 

I've got as far as the E/LG/* marking, but nothing better than that. usually they marked the barrels with diameter, but all I have is 18.2 and nothing I have found has that number. usually its .775 or something. nothing related to that number. 

 

Not sure if its actual gold inlay, no idea how to even tell. but the front sight does look like it could be bone or something close. All the markings I found I took pictures of and poster. there is NO other markings. The "JJD" might be the makers initials, but thats about my only guess on that. 

[c.a.willard]

the 18.2 is could be a metric marking wich is roughly .716 inches or just a tad bit smaller than a 12 Guage bore.  The crown/X is a coutermark thats from around the 1850's. 

[Jonnin]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/201328/  for whatever that is worth.

[gregintenn]

My guess is a paradox gun, which is meant to be both a rifle and shotgun. Are the ends of the bores rifled? The express sights with the ivory front bead lead me to believe this. I'm guessing a 12 bore.

 

Although it's little more than a wall hanger at this point, I'm really liking it! Thanks for sharing.

Edited December 27, 2012 by gregintenn