Defensive situation question

[Newman]

Just need clarification: Possible Situtation: Walking out of grocery store, man comes up and asks for some change or a cig or whatever. We do not oblige for whatever reason. Man gets upset and wants to fight. I tell him to back off while assuming a defensive position. Man will not stop and continues to come towards me in a very offensive manner. Scanning the man, he does NOT have a weapon although I am still worried about what they are capable of doing (or maybe I have my kids with me, etc). Can I pull my weapon and tell the man to "stand down" or "stop or I will shoot" or Can I pull out my weapon, warn the man, man doesn't stop and proceed to shoot him or Am I not able to use my weapon at all due to the fact the man is not armed...? I want to discuss this with my wife as well and want to speak intelligently about it. Thanks in advance, Newman

[Guest bkelm18]

I carry pepper spray for several reasons, much like this. A situation may arise that does not warrant the use of a firearm but clearly warrants some type of defensive response.

[midtennchip]

Just need clarification: Possible Situtation: Walking out of grocery store, man comes up and asks for some change or a cig or whatever. We do not oblige for whatever reason. Man gets upset and wants to fight. I tell him to back off while assuming a defensive position. Man will not stop and continues to come towards me in a very offensive manner. Scanning the man, he does NOT have a weapon although I am still worried about what they are capable of doing (or maybe I have my kids with me, etc). Can I pull my weapon and tell the man to "stand down" or "stop or I will shoot" or Can I pull out my weapon, warn the man, man doesn't stop and proceed to shoot him or Am I not able to use my weapon at all due to the fact the man is not armed...? I want to discuss this with my wife as well and want to speak intelligently about it. Thanks in advance, Newman

You would likely NOT be justified in using a firearm here (at least not before the man attacks).  Also, I wonder if a threat would stop the man, anyway.  So many homeless people have mental issues and this sounds like a situation where that might be exactly the issue. 

 

On another note, I have a friend who had this situation occur in Memphis several years ago.  However, it turned for the worse.  The guy grabbed a weedeater (of all things) out of the back of another truck at the gas station and hit my friend with it.  Luckily, my friend was able to get the better of the guy. 

[EastHipster]

There may be a better source than this, but this will give you the idea:

http://www.tncrimlaw.com/TPI_Crim/40_06.htm

[EastHipster]

This bit is important:

            [The [threat] [use] of force against another is not justified if the defendant provoked the [deceased's] [alleged victim's] [use] [attempted use] of unlawful force, unless the defendant abandoned the encounter or clearly communicated to the [deceased] [alleged victim] the intent to do so, and the [deceased] [alleged victim] nevertheless [continued] [attempted] to use unlawful force against the defendant.]

[xRUSTYx]

I carry pepper spray for several reasons, much like this. A situation may arise that does not warrant the use of a firearm but clearly warrants some type of defensive response.

 

+1

 

They have mini pepper spray cans that fit on key chains.   These are perfect for this scenario since you likely have your key's out when walking to your vehicle!

[EastHipster]

But this is the basis:

When a person is assaulted, by the [use of force] [attempted use of force], in such a way as to create in his or her mind a reasonable belief that he or she is in imminent and actual danger of [death] [serious bodily injury], he or she will be justified in [threatening] [using] force to defend himself or herself even to the extent of killing another human being.  The [threat] [use] of force can only be to the degree reasonably believed to be immediately necessary to protect against the other's [use] [attempted use] of unlawful force.  The danger creating the belief of imminent [death] [serious bodily injury] must be real, or honestly believed to be real at the time, and must be founded upon reasonable grounds.1

[Guest sventvkg]

You would likely NOT be justified in using a firearm here (at least not before the man attacks).  Also, I wonder if a threat would stop the man, anyway.  So many homeless people have mental issues and this sounds like a situation where that might be exactly the issue. 

 

On another note, I have a friend who had this situation occur in Memphis several years ago.  However, it turned for the worse.  The guy grabbed a weedeater (of all things) out of the back of another truck at the gas station and hit my friend with it.  Luckily, my friend was able to get the better of the guy. 

I disagree vehemently with this part of the law because if someone attacks me hand to hand and i'm carrying, I could be disarmed and shot with my own gun...Let me clarify, that I've been in some REALLY hairy hand to hand situations in my life and due to that experience If someone looks like a formidable physical threat I'll probably threaten and if they keep coming I'll pull and I might shoot. The reality is I have almost killed people hand to hand and have been hurt seriously. It's VERY easy to do and those of you who know that, know. I carry because I don't want to have to roll around with someone. This law is bad in my opinion. Self defense is self defense. 

[Jesse]

this was ruled self defense.         i think it all depends on the situation.  

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoALOGnl76A&lc=22reGeyT4-F4VJnFBOh46YPDTxVIpK3G1qartUyfvqQ

[Guest lilmule]

This is a question on the cc exam,no only under life treathening situations.

You cannot pull a gun because you feel threatened,only life threatening.

Anything else is brandishing-possible loss of lic.

Key wording your own

I tell him to back off while assuming a defensive position,this is not a stand your ground(fla) state-walk away

If trouble follows thats another matter and because the other grapples with you does not mean they are going for your gun,if carried right should not know you have one,unless a highly trained professional.

It your gun is not an attitude adjuster for everyone else-they may be ccw carrier as well.Then two idiots kill each other.

I consider mine to be a last ditch resort,but there if needed,otherwise even forget its there.

Ayoob stated it and believe him to be right shoot someone -your life is over,lawsuits by the vistums relatives,laws loss of $,if ruled bad then loss of freedom and gun rights forever.

If its a case of carried by six then id rather be judged by 12,but its still a life changing occurance.

Lastly not a police officer ,cannot chase a perp ,or shoot them in the back running away no longer a threat.

That gun is the last thing you should do or think of, a last resort.

Wave that gun around because a homeless person got aggressive you wont have it long,in the case of physical attack with something else like a weedeater they are armed of  a sort but one must use judgement.

I once was swung at by a blind woman and a cane,had mentioned to her a curb was infront and how many ft away as had never seen her,thought was maybe new to the area ,she went ballistic-also was not a problem avoiding.

20 ft is considered the distance one can generally avaid or avoid and even should they grab a chain saw have you ever attempted running with one,be hard to catch granny-that is the stance a da will take.Maybe 12 of your peers will fail to indite.

Edited December 16, 2012 by lilmule

[Steelharp]

FWIW... I've read where Mr. Ayoob has said the wrong thing to say is, "Stop, or I'll shoot!" Apparently, witnesses can interpret that in the heat of the situation as you saying that you're a cop and you'll shoot. He said say something like, "Don't hurt me!"

[TMF]

By myself or with my wife I'd keep my weapon holstered. If I have my three year old holding my hand or I'm carrying my baby and someone comes at me, the gun is coming out and it's up to him of I use it.

[DaveTN]

You will get all kinds of guesses/speculation/interpretations when you ask about the use or threating the use of deadly force.

 

My opinion (which means nothing) is that the threat of force has a much lower level of justification than the use of force. If someone approaches me in a threatening manner I will draw my weapon. However, that doesn’t mean a scary looking guy asking for money or a cigarette. It would be more along the lines of me walking away from someone and them running at me or grabbing me.

 

However, if you ever pull your weapon you better be on the phone with the cops right then, right that minute, not after you drive home and think about it. The first caller is the complainant the second caller is the suspect.

 

Whether or not you were justified in what you did will first be determined by the responding Officers. If they agree you were in danger they will let you go. (Talking about you pulling your gun, not killing someone) If they don’t agree it then goes to the DA and then a Judge or Jury.

 

If you make the decision to pull the trigger it’s all on you. There are no hard and fast rules, short of someone threatening you with a deadly weapon or shooting at you. Everything comes into play then. No one cares what you were thinking or whether or not you were scared; they only care what a reasonable person would think or do. My own personal test is “Would a reasonable person believe I am in fear of death or great bodily harm?”

 

So many things come into play in deciding if you were justified. You will be judged by people that have weeks if not months to think about and decide if what you did was right.

 

As a Police Officer we had access to the States Attorney for our County. We had a pretty good idea of what he would do, without having a specific case to look at. In a perfect world citizens would have that same kind of access in their counties so they would know the feelings of the DA.

 

One of the Attorneys here is going to have a class on this. (Need a link) That would be a great source of information. Unfortunately when it comes to the use of deadly force or what you should do after shooting, Defense Attorneys and District Attorneys are going to have differing opinions. You need to hear both sides and make informed decisions as you are the only one that is going to be held reasonable for your actions. I’m not aware if County DA’s make themselves or someone from their office available for this kind of information.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

You're correct Dave, and that's why we're usually doomed . . .

 

 

You will get all kinds of guesses/speculation/interpretations when you ask about the use or threating the use of deadly force.

My own personal test is “Would a reasonable person believe I am in fear of death or great bodily harm?”

 

So many things come into play in deciding if you were justified. You will be judged by people that have weeks if not months to think about and decide if what you did was right.

 

 

 

Mark Twain -
The jury system puts a ban upon intelligence and honesty, and a premium upon ignorance, stupidity and perjury. It is a shame that we must continue to use a worthless system because it was good a thousand years ago...I desire to tamper with the jury law. I wish to so alter it as to put a premium on intelligence and character, and close the jury box against idiots, blacklegs, and people who do not read newspapers. But no doubt I shall be defeated--every effort I make to save the country "misses fire."
 

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I usually watch for threats much more than in the past. Sometimes, I'm sure threats can't be avoided.

 

Say I'm coming out of Kroger's and a person asks for a dollar, or some gas, I usually walk on by. But, if that

person says something else that might be harassing, my hand is already near my weapon, only in case. I

haven't been threatened to any other degree, yet, but I stay aware as best I can an avoid as much as possible.

 

If he's a crazy, I don't know that. If someone starts to take a swing at me over anything, the gun will come out

and I will yell "help!" while I have to make a fast decision. I carry to avoid fights. Been in one fist fight my whole

life, so far, and don't plan on getting my ass whipped, ever again. I don't provoke anything with any strangers.

A fist is deadly enough to me especially if the guy is bigger than me.

 

Most of the time the person seems to be some scammer if they are asking for gas. Seen it many times in

Nashville, while at malls and restaurants. I just do my best to avoid and walk on by.

 

In the end, I sure don't want to have to be the subject in a Grand Jury with the possibility of some charge by a

very political DA.

[chrisw670]

The deciding factor, in that kind of situation, is will you be able to convince an officer, district attorney or a jury that you were in fear of being seriously injured or killed. Drawing down on someone with your firearm is a serious matter that can cause major headaches is you can't prove it was warranted.