Connecticut school shooting

[MacGyver]

Most schools were designed to be places for the community to gather - in addition to their 8-3 use in educating children.  Up until a few years ago, they were designed to be open and welcoming.  It's pretty difficult to suddenly decide we need to apply security controls to buildings that weren't designed for that purpose.

 

It's a shame that we look at schools these days as places that need to be locked down.  I get the reasoning behind it.  It just seems like as we continue to fail to keep guns out of our schools - maybe we should consider some other options.

 

It's for the children, after all.

[Daniel]

No one should be able to get into a school with a gun. No matter how fast the SRO's or other staff can respond by returning fire, how many children/staff would have been shot? It needs to stop at the door. Once the shooter is inside the school, it's too late in my opinion. It's a damn shame that passengers at the airport are safer that our kids in school!

 

Dave

What do you propose?

[RobertNashville]

No one should be able to get into a school with a gun. No matter how fast the SRO's or other staff can respond by returning fire, how many children/staff would have been shot? It needs to stop at the door. Once the shooter is inside the school, it's too late in my opinion. It's a damn shame that passengers at the airport are safer that our kids in school!

 

Dave

That's fine...but again I ask, how exactly are you going to prevent it? Do you want to turn schools into maximum security prisons???

It's all well and good to say no one "should" get in school with a gun but that's like saying no one "should" drive drunk; but both will continue to happen.

[DaveS]

I'm not going to say "what, when or where", but I guarantee I can walk in the doors of just about any local school USA, between classes when the hallways are full of kids, and walk just about anywhere unchallenged and maybe not even see the SRO, and few to no staff members. If the SRO is at the other end of the school, and no staff member is in sight, how many of our children could be taken down before staff could respond to the scene, locate the shooter and return fire. How many kids? Solution? Don't let me in the school with a shotgun! Simple solution.

 

Dave

[R_Bert]

No one should be able to get into a school with a gun. No matter how fast the SRO's or other staff can respond by returning fire, how many children/staff would have been shot? It needs to stop at the door. Once the shooter is inside the school, it's too late in my opinion. It's a damn shame that passengers at the airport are safer that our kids in school!

 

Dave

 

to dispel this myth -

 

I have over a million miles air travel under my belt, and I had ties to the security industry (In a former life I used to teach port security training and other safeguards measures).

 

Passengers are not safer than anyone at a school or a mall.

 

There are probably dozens of ways to bring a weapon into an airport, still.

 

-TSA staffer was killed only a few weeks ago. 

- I myself have managed to forget prohibited items in my bag, only to find it at the gate after passing through security.

- I myself completely bypassed security checkpoints only a few years ago because I went in literally through the exits in reverse (could not read the signs)

- employees are not given same scrutiny at checkpoints

- I have watched DC insiders bypass security at Reagan National.

- cargo is pretty much not scanned at all (and transported in the hold of commercial airliners)

- and of course insider threat allows access through staff/personnel  doors.   

 

The list goes on.  It is referred to as "security theater" for a reason.

Edited December 16, 2013 by R_Bert

[DaveS]

What do you propose?

Not sure Daniel. How about having one access door for entry, and maybe an SRO at that entrance with a walk through metal detector. Yes, it will cost money, but what price does each of us put on our child? At what point do we realize that teachers/staff need to be armed, and there is a need to keep the bad guy from getting into the school with a gun to begin with! One minute of semi auto gunfire in a crowded hallway is one minute too long for a response from staff. An armed gunman with any semi auto rifle with a 30 round mag can bring down the wrath of hell in just a few seconds on a bunch of innocent kids. STOP THEM AT THE DOOR!!! Arming teachers will not work alone and other measures have to be taken. Armed teachers should be the last line of defense, not the first. The first line falls at the doors.

 

Dave

[DaveS]

to dispel this myth -

 

I have over a million miles air travel under my belt, and I had ties to the security industry (In a former life I used to teach port security training and other safeguards measures).

 

Passengers are not safer than anyone at a school or a mall.

 

There are probably dozens of ways to bring a weapon into an airport, still.

 

- I myself have managed to forget prohibited items in my bag, only to find it at the gate after passing through security.

- I myself completely bypassed security checkpoints only a few years ago because I went in literally through the exits in reverse (could not read the signs)

- employees are not given same scrutiny at checkpoints

- cargo is pretty much not scanned at all (and transported in the hold of commercial airliners)

- and of course insider threat allows access through stall/personnel  doors.   

 

The list goes on.  It is referred to as "security theater" for a reason.

How many times have you gotten on a plane or into the passenger area with an AR or Shotty? Apparently its easy to walk into a school with one...I'm not going to name the school, but I went to a school not that long ago to pick up a family member. I walked in the first set of doors, pushed a button on the wall, a buzzer sounded and the door lock clicked. I opened it, walked into a crowded hallway totally unchallenged by anyone. I asked a kid (no adults were in sight) where the office was. I walked down the hall to the office, still unchallenged by staff or SRO. How safe is that? What hell could I have raised with 2 semi auto handguns? I should have never been permitted into that hallway and damn sure not with two handguns, an AR or Shotty. That is the part I don't get. Why was I not checked at the door? How hard is that?

 

Dave

[DaveS]

to dispel this myth -

 

I have over a million miles air travel under my belt, and I had ties to the security industry (In a former life I used to teach port security training and other safeguards measures).

 

Passengers are not safer than anyone at a school or a mall.

 

There are probably dozens of ways to bring a weapon into an airport, still.

 

-TSA staffer was killed only a few weeks ago. 

- I myself have managed to forget prohibited items in my bag, only to find it at the gate after passing through security.

- I myself completely bypassed security checkpoints only a few years ago because I went in literally through the exits in reverse (could not read the signs)

- employees are not given same scrutiny at checkpoints

- I have watched DC insiders bypass security at Reagan National.

- cargo is pretty much not scanned at all (and transported in the hold of commercial airliners)

- and of course insider threat allows access through staff/personnel  doors.   

 

The list goes on.  It is referred to as "security theater" for a reason.

I couldn't get through the gate with a pair a nail clippers back in July when picking my teenage daughter up when her flight came in. Kids bring guns into school in their backpacks every day and are ratted out by their class mates when they show them off or drop them on the floor. How does that happen? Our schools are safe? Stop it at the door, it's the only way!

 

Dave

[R_Bert]

How many times have you gotten on a plane or into the passenger area with an AR or Shotty? Apparently its easy to walk into a school with one...I'm not going to name the school, but I went to a school not that long ago to pick up a family member. I walked in the first set of doors, pushed a button on the wall, a buzzer sounded and the door lock clicked. I opened it, walked into a crowded hallway totally unchallenged by anyone. I asked a kid (no adults were in sight) where the office was. I walked down the hall to the office, still unchallenged by staff or SRO. How safe is that? What hell could I have raised with 2 semi auto handguns? I should have never been permitted into that hallway and damn sure not with two handguns, an AR or Shotty. That is the part I don't get. Why was I not checked at the door? How hard is that?

 

Dave

 

My point is that it is not only possible, it can be probable.

 

I understand your frustration regarding schools, but the argument comparing  air transportation is in fact not valid.  But to answer your question, when I (inadvertently) bypassed security at a major international airport (twice, two different airports), I had about 150 lbs of equipment with me, and made it all the way to the gate from the ticket counter.  I was discovered only as I was boarding the plane, when I did not have a stamp on my boarding pass (with planning could be forged).  I am sure a few procedures were reviewed because of me.

 

It is theater. Doors and walls provide at most 30 seconds of delay.  They do not solve anything. 

 

Remember, a 80 yr old nun and two hippies breached the most secure facility in the eastern US a while back.

Edited December 16, 2013 by R_Bert

[RobertNashville]

How many times have you gotten on a plane or into the passenger area with an AR or Shotty? Apparently its easy to walk into a school with one...I'm not going to name the school, but I went to a school not that long ago to pick up a family member. I walked in the first set of doors, pushed a button on the wall, a buzzer sounded and the door lock clicked. I opened it, walked into a crowded hallway totally unchallenged by anyone. I asked a kid (no adults were in sight) where the office was. I walked down the hall to the office, still unchallenged by staff or SRO. How safe is that? What hell could I have raised with 2 semi auto handguns? I should have never been permitted into that hallway and damn sure not with two handguns, an AR or Shotty. That is the part I don't get. Why was I not checked at the door? How hard is that?

 

Dave

Let's say your were challenged?  So what?  If you were there to shoot up the place would being "challenged' even slow you down?

 

Even airport level security isn't going to stop anything unless you are going to set up a big perimeter around every school with plenty of armed guards so that any shootout happens "outside" rather than inside.

[Oh Shoot]

How about having one access door for entry, and maybe an SRO at that entrance with a walk through metal detector.

 

You don't even have to get inside the school to wreak havoc. Just drive up as school lets out and start the the mayhem. Or catch kids on athletic field, whatever.

 

I couldn't get through the gate with a pair a nail clippers back in July when picking my teenage daughter up when her flight came in.

 

Again, you don't have to get inside security gate to kill beau coup folks in an airport. Just walk into the main terminal and let it rip.

 

- OS

[R_Bert]

Let's say your were challenged?  So what?  If you were there to shoot up the place would being "challenged' even slow you down?

 

Even airport level security isn't going to stop anything unless you are going to set up a big perimeter around every school with plenty of armed guards so that any shootout happens "outside" rather than inside.

and expect the threat.

[R_Bert]

You don't even have to get inside the school to wreak havoc. Just drive up as school lets out and start the the mayhem. Or catch kids on athletic field, whatever.

 

 

Again, you don't have to get inside security gate to kill beau coup folks in an airport. Just walk into the main terminal and let it rip.

 

- OS

 

This is exactly the problem.

 

Planners plan a response to a specific threat, then bad guy does something entirely different.

[DaveS]

Let's say your were challenged?  So what?  If you were there to shoot up the place would being "challenged' even slow you down?

 

 

Maybe not Robert, but at least someone could sound an alarm or something. Be there to attempt to stop a tragedy and any intervention is better than nothing. Maybe ask me why I'm there, who am I picking up and maybe escort me to the office so I'm not wandering the hallways. My argument is, don't let me inside those doors armed! There has to be a way to stop it! I wish I had the answers, but I don't.

 

Dave

[R_Bert]

Maybe not Robert, but at least someone could sound an alarm or something. Be there to attempt to stop a tragedy and any intervention is better than nothing. Maybe ask me why I'm there, who am I picking up and maybe escort me to the office so I'm not wandering the hallways. My argument is, don't let me inside those doors armed! There has to be a way to stop it! I wish I had the answers, but I don't.

 

Dave

 

The Colorado SRO response was about as good as it will get (120 seconds for total event duration).

 

Respond ASAP, minimize impact, eliminate threat (if no suicide before hand)..

 

(there will always be a way to access or bring a weapon)

Edited December 17, 2013 by R_Bert

[DaveS]

You don't even have to get inside the school to wreak havoc. Just drive up as school lets out and start the the mayhem. Or catch kids on athletic field, whatever.

 

 

Again, you don't have to get inside security gate to kill beau coup folks in an airport. Just walk into the main terminal and let it rip.

 

- OS

I agree OS...how many school shooting happen outside compared to inside? I don't recall too many outside. I could be wrong, but I can only recall a couple where a student or students were shot outside of school. Kids have a lot of places to run while outside compared to a crowded hallway. We can't stop a drive by shooting of students outside, but we damn sure can stop them from getting inside.

 

Dave

[R_Bert]

I agree OS...how many school shooting happen outside compared to inside? I don't recall too many outside. I could be wrong, but I can only recall a couple where a student or students were shot outside of school. Kids have a lot of places to run while outside compared to a crowded hallway. We can't stop a drive by shooting of students outside, but we damn sure can stop them from getting inside.

 

Dave

 

football games. Bleachers full of soft targets. Don't even have to be inside the field.

Edited December 17, 2013 by R_Bert

[DaveS]

The Colorado SRO response was about as good as it will get (120 seconds for total event duration).

 

Respond ASAP, minimize impact, eliminate threat (if no suicide before hand)..

 

(there will always be a way to access or bring a weapon)

Absolutely R_Bert is was a good response. In that 120 seconds an innocent teenager was shot in the head and is barely clinging to life. To her parents and the rest of us with kids in school, that is way too long! The shooter should have never been able to get in school with a SHOTGUN! I hope I don't have to keep saying that. Parents that have kids shot while at school, and us parents who worry about those things, are getting pretty tired of the lame azz excuses on how this keeps happening in our schools. Something has to be done to stop them BEFORE they get in the school. Simple.

 

Dave

Edited December 17, 2013 by DaveS

[R_Bert]

Absolutely R_Bert is was a good response. In that 120 seconds an innocent teenager was shot in the head and is barely clinging to life. To her parents and the rest of us with kids in school, that is 150 seconds too long! The shooter should have never been able to get in school with a SHOTGUN! I hope I don't have to keep saying that. Parents that have kids shot while at school, and us parents who worry about those things, are getting pretty tired of the lame azz excuses on how this keeps happening in our schools. Something has to be done to stop them BEFORE they get in the school. Simple.

 

Dave

Dave,

 

I am saddened by what happened to the young girl, but from a security standpoint, school buildings are no different from any other facility.  There is no practical way other than personnel-trap portals, scanning , and then body searches to keep a person from devising a way to bring a weapon into a facility, and not even then with insider assistance.

 

Delay and deterrence serve only one purpose.  To give response team a few precious seconds extra time to respond, and to prevent the adversary from escaping.

 

The measure you dream of will never be accepted in public facilities because it takes 5-6 minutes per person to process (multiplied by magnitude of school roster).

 

Wayne LP has it right.  The best response to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun (I add - and overwhelming response at that)

 

That remind me.... all this is another reason to home school.

Edited December 17, 2013 by R_Bert

[TMF]

How many times have you gotten on a plane or into the passenger area with an AR or Shotty? Apparently its easy to walk into a school with one...I'm not going to name the school, but I went to a school not that long ago to pick up a family member. I walked in the first set of doors, pushed a button on the wall, a buzzer sounded and the door lock clicked. I opened it, walked into a crowded hallway totally unchallenged by anyone. I asked a kid (no adults were in sight) where the office was. I walked down the hall to the office, still unchallenged by staff or SRO. How safe is that? What hell could I have raised with 2 semi auto handguns? I should have never been permitted into that hallway and damn sure not with two handguns, an AR or Shotty. That is the part I don't get. Why was I not checked at the door? How hard is that?
 
Dave

Yeah, but I can walk into a mall or a movie theater and achieve the same thing. Bottom line, the world isn't safe. The answer isn't to live on constant lockdown. There are plenty of measures that can be taken to give us reasonable security, but nothing can be mitigated down to zero. So long as there are evil people there will be evil deeds.

[Oh Shoot]

. Kids have a lot of places to run while outside compared to a crowded hallway.

 

Far as I know, worst massacre of kids was Anders Brevik in Norway in 2011, killed 67 and wounded 33 more. All outside on 26 acre island. With a Mini14.

 

What made it so easy for him? No armed opposition.

 

There is no way to stop a determined killer who doesn't care if he survives the thing except another armed opponent.  I've been somewhat surprised there haven't been more suicide bombings in schools -- that's surely about as effective "terrorism" folks can imagine.

 

- OS

[Erik88]

What exactly is this "new background check" that he passed? I thought that for the most part all check were the same. Is that not the case?

[DaveTN]

Parents that have kids shot while at school, and us parents who worry about those things, are getting pretty tired of the lame azz excuses on how this keeps happening in our schools. Something has to be done to stop them BEFORE they get in the school. Simple.

Dave, with all due respect you sound like the people that want to disarm us. The world is a dangerous place. If a person is willing to give their life (and most mass shooters are), and they want to kill your child they will do it no matter what kind of barriers the schools put up. They can’t lock down a school so the kids can’t get out; you were a fireman you know that. So someone opens a door; it’s that simple. They could also do it at your home while you watch.

My children didn’t grow up fearful of everything around them and I don’t want my Grandchildren to grow up that way either. Your children have far greater possibilities of being killed traveling to and from school than by a school shooter. But we don’t transport them in tanks…. Yet.

[bersaguy]

There is no way to actually stop a would be shooter from trying to get in the school. I think from the posts above that is fact. I will post again what I posted on page 19 of this thread. You know you cannot stop them from coming but you damn sure can discourage it. Take away the Gun Free Zone from schools. Hire veterans and  ex-military well trained personnel male and female to work in the schools in plain clothes and don't even make them known to any students. Remember it was a female MP that stopped the shooter at Fort Hood. Many military people have college degrees and could be counselors, Deans of Boys and Deans of Girls, Grounds keepers, some could be teachers, Office personnel, Secretary, Janitor and the list goes on. Then post a sign on every door that reads ARMED PERSONNEL on DUTY. You guess which ones they are? That right there takes away about 90% of any plans a person might have. Hey know right then that their chance of success drops tremendously. Then a buzz door would be required for anyone trying to enter after classes begin not allowing anyone in or out with out explaining their presence and reason for being there. Have 1 or 2 armed personnel ready to intercept the person if they make type of move rather than coming to directly to the office. Have cameras that watch the person from that door to the office. If they alter their course at all they are intercepted by the armed security people. Many of the ex military and Vets are unemployed. Put them to work protecting our greatest assets. Our Children. When other people run from gun fire Troops run towards it. Not because they hate what is in front of them but because they love what is behind them..............JMHO

[Hozzie]

I don't know about everyone else, but I can tell you, I am not willing to pay anymore than I already pay to do anything different.  Where does it stop?  Everyone in Oklahoma wants us to put tornado shelters in every school, now SRO's and metal detectors in every school?  Who's paying for this?  Oh yeah, those of us who already pay for everything else, and many who don't even have kids.  Sorry, but if you feel like your kids risk is too high, maybe you should consider homeschooling.   

 

Fact is, bad things happen every day and they will continue to happen.  How many kids actually get killed in situations like this?  In reality, not that many.  Someone will say that 1 is too many, and while I agree in theory, you can't stop everything when you live in a free society.  How many kids die each year playing a sport, probably more than you think and more than do in a shooting like this.  The solution to all of this is not living in a police state.   If they want to arm faculty and staff who are already employed ok.   

Edited December 17, 2013 by Hozzie