Jumping Through Hoops in Tenneessee. This has to change

[RobertNashville]

How can any constitutionalist say that any state is 'doing it the right way' when they require a permission slip from the state to exercise a right?  None of the original states would have accepted the Constitution and approved federalism without those first 10 amendments.  The problem is that states no longer exercise their sovereignty, and citizens have devolved into contented & ignorant serfs, no longer equipped to hold their politicians accountable.  

 

How many here would celebrate if all we needed to attend religious services was to fill out a few forms and get register our names with a standard background check?

 

Seems we proverbial frogs are happy to sit in 210 degree water.

Who, specifically, has said that any state is "doing it the right way"?

People are comparing the way various states do it but I think you are jumping to a conclusion if you believe that means we all think the process is "right". I think, at least most of us, would prefer no "permit" process necessary anywhere but that's not where we are right now. We didn't get to this point overnight but we HAVE made great strides in the past couple of decades or so which we all ought to be happy about even while continuing to push the pendulum further toward its original (and proper) position.

Edited December 16, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest TNSovereignty]

Who, specifically, has said that any state is "doing it the right way"?

 

Personally I think NH does it the correct way.  When I got my NH permit when I was working on a contract up there the process was very simple.  Go to local LEO station.  Fill out form.  Turn in form.  I was called 3 days later to pick up the permit.  No picture, no finger prints.  They ran the standard background check and that was it.  Shame TN can't adopt something like that.

Oh yeah, process was $10.

 

[RobertNashville]

 

Who, specifically, has said that any state is "doing it the right way"?

 

Personally I think NH does it the correct way.  When I got my NH permit when I was working on a contract up there the process was very simple.  Go to local LEO station.  Fill out form.  Turn in form.  I was called 3 days later to pick up the permit.  No picture, no finger prints.  They ran the standard background check and that was it.  Shame TN can't adopt something like that.

Oh yeah, process was $10.

 

 

Still reading into it something that I don't believe is there (something I was just recently accused of ;) )

NH, in that poster's opinion, "doing it the right way" in comparison to others...I think you are painting with far to broad a brush to suggest that the poster or any of us mean that we think t should be done at all.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

How can any constitutionalist say that any state is 'doing it the right way' when they require a permission slip from the state to exercise a right?  None of the original states would have accepted the Constitution and approved federalism without those first 10 amendments.  The problem is that states no longer exercise their sovereignty, and citizens have devolved into contented & ignorant serfs, no longer equipped to hold their politicians accountable.  

 

How many here would celebrate if all we needed to attend religious services was to fill out a few forms and get register our names with a standard background check?

 

Seems we proverbial frogs are happy to sit in 210 degree water.

That was a good point about churches. :D

 

The states have effectively been bought off by revenue sharing and excessive incremental assertion from the federal

government, which has gone unchecked for decades. Although some are pushing back as of late, there needs to be

more of it.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

I think, at least most of us, would prefer no "permit" process necessary anywhere but that's not where we are right now. We didn't get to this point overnight but we HAVE made great strides in the past couple of decades or so which we all ought to be happy about even while continuing to push the pendulum further toward its original (and proper) position.

Maybe I didn't state my point very well - my apologies.  I just don't do celebratory backflips when we make incremental baby steps over the course of a couple decades.  I agree that we should be 'pushing the pendulum' ... but at the same time we should have the intestinal fortitude to exercise the right without governmental permission slips.  Yes, let's continue the effort to hold the politicians and their minions to appropriately alter their policies & legal opinions.  In the meantime, we TN Gun Owners would do well to recognize that our rights don't descend from lawmakers ... as I read some opinions here there seem to be too many that don't understand what 'inalienable' rights truly mean, and that's what I'd like to see changed even more than our state regulatory policies.  

[Oh Shoot]

Last time I looked at TN there were 39 but maybe I was including TN???

 

Yup. 39 in total. No other state has permit more recognized than ours, not sure any other even ties.

 

- OS

[RobertNashville]

Maybe I didn't state my point very well - my apologies.  I just don't do celebratory backflips when we make incremental baby steps over the course of a couple decades.  I agree that we should be 'pushing the pendulum' ... but at the same time we should have the intestinal fortitude to exercise the right without governmental permission slips.  Yes, let's continue the effort to hold the politicians and their minions to appropriately alter their policies & legal opinions.  In the meantime, we TN Gun Owners would do well to recognize that our rights don't descend from lawmakers ... as I read some opinions here there seem to be too many that don't understand what 'inalienable' rights truly mean, and that's what I'd like to see changed even more than our state regulatory policies.  

I don't really disagree; I just didn't get the impression that anyone is celebrating; just comparing. :)

 

I'm glad that most states (I think we are now down to 1 1/5 that don't at least allow some kind of carry) have been making progress and I'm glad I live in a state that compared to many others, has a system that does allow me to carry and to do so in a lot of states but that's were my celebration ends!

It was mostly incremental steps that got all these laws in place that effectively took away our right to carry and it will be incremental steps that take us back the other way...I hope that even with Obummer's sure to come efforts to stop our progress, we can keep the momentum going in the right direction. 

[Guest TNSovereignty]

I don't really disagree; I just didn't get the impression that anyone is celebrating; just comparing. :)

Friend, we're on the same team ... we're at the point in our dialogue where I'd say we're in "violent agreement."  

[Guest sventvkg]

How can any constitutionalist say that any state is 'doing it the right way' when they require a permission slip from the state to exercise a right?  None of the original states would have accepted the Constitution and approved federalism without those first 10 amendments.  The problem is that states no longer exercise their sovereignty, and citizens have devolved into contented & ignorant serfs, no longer equipped to hold their politicians accountable.  

 

How many here would celebrate if all we needed to attend religious services was to fill out a few forms and get register our names with a standard background check?

 

Seems we proverbial frogs are happy to sit in 210 degree water.

Totally right! This is the entire crux of my issue. Why are those of us who want to live under the Law of the land in such a minority? I've never understood how so called liberty minded people can just accept these chains we live under. I'll never get it.

 

And Robert, Why are you so afraid of Anarchists? Anarchy doesn't have to be what you see on TV.Marauding gangs. A True Anarchist has a moral compass just like us and understands right and wrong. He just doesn't want to be a part of any "system"...Why is that bad? Who is anyone to try to force another sovereign human being into a system? I'd say that's Tyranny at a basic level don't you?......I WANT to be part of this American system in it's true, classic and non-perverted form. I'm a PROUD American and I'm pissed off that certain elements have ruined my country. I blame Human nature. I'd like to rid the country of these elements. I'm not alone. Collectively there are 10's of Millions that think just like me..Maybe 50 Million or more and as I said, a line is going to be crossed at some point in the near future, compounded with economic/sociopolitical events, that's going to set this country aflame. Personally I don't want to see it or be involved but that doesn't change my view that it's inevitable. No matter what happens, I believe freedom will win or the world as we know it will end. The worst of times are certainly ahead.

[RobertNashville]

And Robert, Why are you so afraid of Anarchists? Anarchy doesn't have to be what you see on TV.Marauding gangs. A True Anarchist has a moral compass just like us and understands right and wrong. He just doesn't want to be a part of any "system"...Why is that bad? Who is anyone to try to force another sovereign human being into a system?

I'm not afraid of anarchists; I simply find their philosophy void of logic and unrealistic. More importantly, the anarchist's philosophy is anathema to the concept of a constitutional republic. Although an anarchist will not agree, bur regardless of the textbook definition of an anarchist and regardless of their intent; their path will lead inevitably to chaos and the ruling of the strong over the weak.

We have government and we have rules because we need them...they are essential for a society to function. Espousing the absence of government and of all authority in favor of living only by their own rules is really just hubris dressed up as a political philosophy.

Edited December 17, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest celler]

[quote name='Sour Kraut' timestamp='1355363981' post='859178']As a non-American Citizen..I had to take at least 1 extra step when I got my HCP in TN..And I gladly did that so I could carry. And they took my fingerprints before this plenty of times for one thing or another. I really could care less Maybe I do look at things differently than most because I am not a US Citizen(yet).. I look at a lot of things as a privilege..not a burden or as infringement... [/quote] Privileges are granted by men. Rights are granted by God. Mensch...ich brauche etwas gegen Kopfschmerzen!

[Spiffy]

Maybe I'm a bit more individual liberty minded than most..I never had a job working for someone else save for my time in the Army and a few short jobs here and there for short periods of time..That said, I was extremely offended and taken aback by all the hoops I had to jump through to get my Tennessee HCP. The application was an affront against my personal liberty, the 2nd amendment and our Founders intent. I was BOILING MAD on the inside when I was subjected to Fingerprinting like a criminal. I know I must seem like an extremist for my Libertarian views but I'm happy to be put in the same category as Thomas Jefferson. I'm STILL steamed up thinking about it....I carried weapons for years living in Alaska with ZERO permits required with zero problems. Here in TN going to a class, paying that fee, paying another $115 fee to the State than having to make an appointment at yet another place (that was not easy to find) to get my fingerprints done seemed like a LOT of jumping through hoops. It should not be this way. We need a REAL political action movement to start asserting our rights. I don't believe in the NRA as they've sold us out before. I'm not aligning with any organization that doesn't believe in the "shall not be infringed" part of the 2nd Amendment. 

 

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. Something needs to be done nationwide and the Federal Courts are not the Answer. They have already proven treasonous. Do Extreme Libertarian minded folks have no recourse but the last one?

 

 

Well Bless Your Heart!  It's not a permit to carry a gun it's a defense against breaking the law.....you still can't legally just carry a loaded firearm.

[RobertNashville]

Well Bless Your Heart!  It's not a permit to carry a gun it's a defense against breaking the law.....you still can't legally just carry a loaded firearm.

That's true of course but I don't think that will make him feel better; probably quite the opposite actually. ;)

[Guest TNSovereignty]

Well Bless Your Heart!  It's not a permit to carry a gun it's a defense against breaking the law.....you still can't legally just carry a loaded firearm.

I suppose when they decide to change the rules on ccw, or decide to confiscate your oversized magazine, or otherwise arbitrarily tread on your rights, you'll simply yield & willingly comply with the law?  Even with the understanding that rights are inalienable, not privileges granted by the state?  

[RobertNashville]

I suppose when they decide to change the rules on ccw, or decide to confiscate your oversized magazine, or otherwise arbitrarily tread on your rights, you'll simply yield & willingly comply with the law?  Even with the understanding that rights are inalienable, not privileges granted by the state?  

The fact that rights are inalienable will not prevent one from going to jail for carrying illegally if a person is found doing so.

 

The law needs to be changed but recognizing that it exists at the moment doesn't mean everyone is just yielding...firearm owners tend to be law abiding citizens, even if we think a law is wrong. What we do, then (or should) is work to effect change and many of us are.

Until the change occurs, however, anyone deciding to carry illegally should do so only after deliberation about the possible repercussions.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

The fact that rights are inalienable will not prevent one from going to jail for carrying illegally if a person is found doing so.

 

The law needs to be changed but recognizing that it exists at the moment doesn't mean everyone is just yielding...firearm owners tend to be law abiding citizens, even if we think a law is wrong. What we do, then (or should) is work to effect change and many of us are.

Until the change occurs, however, anyone deciding to carry illegally should do so only after deliberation about the possible repercussions.

After a bit of back & forth dialogue with you, I find we're coming at this from opposite directions.  I'm willing to face the repercussions ... and I do understand that others are not.  But you'll have to excuse me if I don't happen to honor the opposing position, which is different from respecting one's right to have a differing opinion.  Playing it safe with the law-abiding position gives one safety & security ... for the time being.   I happen to think that history proves my position to be more effective at fighting tyranny, while recognizing my position places me in an 'extremist' minority.  20th century history might have been much different if European citizens, especially the Jews, had defied the (so-called) laws of man & struggled against tyranny at every level - political, legal, and with the barrel of a gun (especially unregistered, undocumented, non-licensed "illegal" guns.)

[RobertNashville]

After a bit of back & forth dialogue with you, I find we're coming at this from opposite directions.  I'm willing to face the repercussions ... and I do understand that others are not.  But you'll have to excuse me if I don't happen to honor the opposing position, which is different from respecting one's right to have a differing opinion.  Playing it safe with the law-abiding position gives one safety & security ... for the time being.   I happen to think that history proves my position to be more effective at fighting tyranny, while recognizing my position places me in an 'extremist' minority.  20th century history might have been much different if European citizens, especially the Jews, had defied the (so-called) laws of man & struggled against tyranny at every level - political, legal, and with the barrel of a gun (especially unregistered, undocumented, non-licensed "illegal" guns.)

I wasn't asking anyone to honor any position...just stating how things are at the moment.  I work to change the laws but while they are in place, I also do my best to obey them.

 

If someone goes to jail because they ignore the existing laws, how effective can they be in fighting tyranny from a cell? How will they provide for their family or loved ones who depend on them?

 

I'm not saying your position is wrong...just asking; because such questions, I think, need to be asked.

 

When it comes to an act/issue that could radically change my life for the worst, I ask myself "is THIS the hill I"m willing to die on").  If its then make peace with God and charge up the hill...if not I look for a way around it. ;)

Edited December 18, 2012 by RobertNashville

[hkusp40cal]

Still reading into it something that I don't believe is there (something I was just recently accused of ;) )

NH, in that poster's opinion, "doing it the right way" in comparison to others...I think you are painting with far to broad a brush to suggest that the poster or any of us mean that we think t should be done at all.

Correct, if you want a state that truly follows the 2nd it would be VT.  Anyone who can legally buy a firearm can carry.  However that right is only recognized in 3 other states.  A VT resident can carry in AK, AZ and OK if they are over 21.

Edited December 18, 2012 by hkusp40cal

[Guest TNSovereignty]

My closing argument is left to those more eloquent than I:

 

It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. – Thomas Paine 

 

 

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. – Thomas Jefferson

 

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the law," because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. – Thomas Jefferson

 

[RobertNashville]

My closing argument is left to those more eloquent than I:

 

It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. – Thomas Paine 

 

 

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. – Thomas Jefferson

 

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within the law," because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. – Thomas Jefferson

 

Yeah...but we aren't at that point; at least not yet and one of the reasons the men you quoted gave us our democratic republic to keep it from getting to that point.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

Yeah...but we aren't at that point; at least not yet and one of the reasons the men you quoted gave us our democratic republic to keep it from getting to that point.

Well, I promised I was going to let those Founders have my last word.  But apparently you & I have a seriously different viewpoint on how acute today's tyranny is compared to those in the day of King George III.  

[RobertNashville]

Well, I promised I was going to let those Founders have my last word.  But apparently you & I have a seriously different viewpoint on how acute today's tyranny is compared to those in the day of King George III.  

I'm pretty sure we do.

[Guest sventvkg]

Well, I promised I was going to let those Founders have my last word.  But apparently you & I have a seriously different viewpoint on how acute today's tyranny is compared to those in the day of King George III.  

Obviously i'm in complete agreement with you. Cold Dead hands days are coming. Mark my words. Remember I said this:

 

1. 4 more years of Obama and things will get much worse for Patriots. We will see the degradation of the 2nd, 1st, 4th and 10th amendments at least and the Idoits on the left and most mainline repubs on the right will go along with it. The former gleefully the latter, grumbly. 

2. Hillary Clinton will be elected in 2016 and serve 2 terms..By the beginning of her election you are going to start to see some flare-ups between jack-boot minions and Patriots. This will steadily increase as her first term goes on. At this point our country is going to be several orders of magnitude more divided than even it is now and there will begin to be open talk of overthrowing the criminals and calls for the restoration of the Constitution. By the end of her first term the country will be in SHAMBLES politically and economically. You're going to see Riots, some Race skirmishes. The crackdown on patriots will have steadily ramped up and at this point the Patriots are starting to strike back with devestating consequences on SWAT, ATF LEO's and other Govt. Minions. They will start bringing in the Military...This is very bad...The Military will divide and it will be brother on brother.

3. After her debated 2nd term election actual civil war will start and you'll see Martial Law, suspension of the Constitution and Hillary in total dictator mode.....AT this point all bets are off but you can be sure, we no longer have a country....This is going to happen 10 years from now most likely...Give or take..My time table could be off by a couple years at most.

 

I know most of you haven't gotten here yet in your analysis. That's why those of us in the patriot community who study this stuff full time refer to ourselves as III percent-ors. I really don't care if you believe this or now but I KNOW you'll eventually get it. 

Edited December 19, 2012 by sventvkg

[RobertNashville]

Well I'm thinking the "Patriot Community" is so far ahead of the rest of us in our "analysis" because they've left logic and common sense completely out of their thought processes, leaving only hubris.

 

I wish I could predict the movements of my stock portfolio over the next 12 months as accurately as you purport to predict our history over the next 10 years. :shake:

Edited December 19, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest sventvkg]

Think what you want man..EVERYTHING I have seen coming down since 911 HAS. I have no reason to believe what I Said will not happen. Save my post and if we're still alive we can come back here and see how close or far away I was. :)