Jumping Through Hoops in Tenneessee. This has to change

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I am not in favor of extra red tape and restrictions, and agree that constitutional carry or at least "less expensive" licensing would be good. The current TN license expense is not exhorbitant, but expensive enough to prevent responsible po folks from getting a carry license unless they are willing to save up and do without to scrape up enough dough to git er done.

 

Given the mix of attitudes among the populace, which most likely won't go away, licensing for legal carry, with some minimal requirements, might be the kind of "minor red tape BS" which prevents "major political BS" from happening later on? One step forward NOW, resulting in two steps back IN THE FUTURE?

 

I'm not good at predicting outcomes, but for instance it seems possible that if we institute constitutional carry so that any untrained idiot without a record can legally carry about anywhere-- After numerous highly-publicized incidents of idiots being idiots-- Stupid gun tricks-- The majority of voters might decide that constitutional carry is a public nuisance, and elect lawmakers to ban carry altogether. Even in a states-rights situation, if 51 percent of TN voters ever decide that civilian carry is a public nuisance, garun-dam-tee ya they will be able to figure out a "constitutional" way to effectively ban civilian carry. If nothing else, make civilian carry so expensive and so much of a hassle and so restrictive that hardly anyone will spend the money and attend monthly qualifying tests to win the "right" to carry anywhere he wants, as long as he only wants to carry on his own property or on public streets. Illegal everywhere else. :)

 

There are different ways to look at it, but on one hand it seems a pretty good thing that anyone legally carrying, was at least told one time, about gun safety? Maybe some licensees ignored or promptly forgot the short lesson on safe gun handling, but OTOH it is difficult to see good things coming of idiots legally carrying who never even ONCE heard the term, "gun safety"? Its not rocket science, but like everything else a fella doesn't know until he is told.

 

Gun safety??? Whatya talkin about willis? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k

 

On that Arkansas medical release requirement-- The decision to skin a cat is one thing. One might decide that the cat does not need skinning. However, if one decides the cat needs skinning, then a sharp scalpel might be the better tool than a rusty tin can. If the public prefers that mental defectives are prohibited carry licenses-- Medical privacy laws will prevent the state from identifying many mental defectives. All the fella has to do is lie on his application and in many cases the state can't refute his lie. So maybe we DON'T want to filter out gun-toting mental defectives, but if we DO want to filter out legally armed mental defectives, then requiring a medical release is a scalpel wheras not requiring a medical release is a rusty tin can. :)

Edited December 13, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Superman]

 

I'm not good at predicting outcomes, but for instance it seems possible that if we institute constitutional carry so that any untrained idiot without a record can legally carry about anywhere-- After numerous highly-publicized incidents of idiots being idiots-- Stupid gun tricks-- The majority of voters might decide that constitutional carry is a public nuisance, and elect lawmakers to ban carry altogether. Even in a states-rights situation, if 51 percent of TN voters ever decide that civilian carry is a public nuisance, garun-dam-tee ya they will be able to figure out a "constitutional" way to effectively ban civilian carry. If nothing else, make civilian carry so expensive and so much of a hassle and so restrictive that hardly anyone will spend the money and attend monthly qualifying tests to win the "right" to carry anywhere he wants, as long as he only wants to carry on his own property or on public streets. Illegal everywhere else. :)

Aren't there 4 states that have constitutional carry now. They seem to be doing just fine. Why would it be any different anywhere else?

 

Also Alabama doesnt require any training for conceal carry permit and the cost to get one is very low, or so thats what I've been told by some that live there.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Superman

[RobertNashville]

I asked in another thread, you a member of the NRA and more specifically to TN law, the TFA?

 

Certainly more effective long term than the occasional forum rant.

 

- OS

Exactly what I was thinking...if folks want things to change they need to do more than rant on the internet.

 

TFA, NRA, USCCA, GOA, and a host of others just for a start...and not just belonging to those organizations but contributing to their PACs...then; getting to know your state representative and senator well enough that you can pick up the phone and talk to them once in a while.

[RobertNashville]

I agree. The hoops and taxes should be removed from the process.

I have suggested a lot here ( and to my reps over the years) that TN needs to copy GA's carry laws. Instant issue, fingerprints handled by LE (free) and applicants are charged what it costs the county to issue them - and not what the state want's to profit.

I wnet through this when I lived in GA and It only took me about an hour to complete the entire process and had my permit in hand within 4 or 5 days or so.

It takes most Tennesseans longer than an hour just to stand in the first line at the DoS.

 

No worries though. People are hard at work bickering about laws with little to no chance of ever coming up to vote, instead of removing unconstitutional restrictions and taxes.

We need constitutional carry and refinement of our HCP process; a couple of very minor adjustments would make the process much less hassle but I very much like that I can carry in some 36 other stats just with my TN HCP and I don't want to see that changed unless it's a change to being honored in more states.

 

Many places that do the class also do the fingerprints; I don't see how going to a sheriff's office would be better or more efficient? My fingerprinting took about 5 minutes tops; the only hard part was the machine getting a good read.

 

I just read GA's carry laws and I don't see how their process is significantly better...different; but not truly better at least as I look at them quickly.  More important I think; their permit is not honored in about 11 fewer states than TN. 

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Aren't there 4 states that have constitutional carry now. They seem to be doing just fine. Why would it be any different anywhere else?

 

Also Alabama doesnt require any training for conceal carry permit and the cost to get one is very low, or so thats what I've been told by some that live there.

 

Thanks Superman. You may be correct that things would work as good or better with no restrictions or jumping hoops. The experiment would have to be conducted to find out.

 

On the wikipedia article on constitutional carry, is a neat animated gif, which after it loads, displays an animated map of shall issue and no restriction states changing over time. Possibly in some web browsers the animation will not work, dunno.

 

 

It starts in 1987 with VT the only unrestricted state, followed later by AK, AZ, and WY.

 

Am not arguing a point, merely speculating-- All the unrestricted states are relatively low population heavily rural, where one might expect most kids to learn gun safety and basic responsibility at home, early on. A well-established responsible gun culture.

 

Perhaps even urban environments would eventually develop the same learned-at-home responsible gun culture after a decade or three of constitutional carry. However, it may be possible that if you suddenly "flip a switch" from restricted to unrestricted in a heavily urban state, you might get lots of urban idiots who never even saw a gun before, go buy em a gun and start toting it around in the pocket with no clue how to operate the gun and no clue about the legal restrictions on its proper use. That might lead to numerous highly publicized "idiots with guns" news stories, causing "too many" voters to decide that unrestricted carry is a public nuisance, if not a public menace. And then they would vote accordingly and unrestricted carry would be short lived indeed.

 

Maybe it would turn out some other way. My crystal ball never worked worth a dern. That is just one way it might turn out. Dunno.

[RobertNashville]

I think you are right...for all its faults, the HCP process in TN does some real good in reacquiring our rights.  Because there is a process that people must follow, that becomes a useful piece of leverage when talking about expanding carry such as the recent (and inappropriately named) "guns in bars" legislation.  We can sit here all day and pontificate about how the training class, etc. doesn't really accomplish anything or make anyone safer but the simple fact that there is a "safety class" required along with demonstrating at least some proficiency can go a long way in thwarting the arguments of the anti-gun blood-in-the-streets crowd.

 

 

I am not in favor of extra red tape and restrictions, and agree that constitutional carry or at least "less expensive" licensing would be good. The current TN license expense is not exhorbitant, but expensive enough to prevent responsible po folks from getting a carry license unless they are willing to save up and do without to scrape up enough dough to git er done.

 

Given the mix of attitudes among the populace, which most likely won't go away, licensing for legal carry, with some minimal requirements, might be the kind of "minor red tape BS" which prevents "major political BS" from happening later on? One step forward NOW, resulting in two steps back IN THE FUTURE?

 

I'm not good at predicting outcomes, but for instance it seems possible that if we institute constitutional carry so that any untrained idiot without a record can legally carry about anywhere-- After numerous highly-publicized incidents of idiots being idiots-- Stupid gun tricks-- The majority of voters might decide that constitutional carry is a public nuisance, and elect lawmakers to ban carry altogether. Even in a states-rights situation, if 51 percent of TN voters ever decide that civilian carry is a public nuisance, garun-dam-tee ya they will be able to figure out a "constitutional" way to effectively ban civilian carry. If nothing else, make civilian carry so expensive and so much of a hassle and so restrictive that hardly anyone will spend the money and attend monthly qualifying tests to win the "right" to carry anywhere he wants, as long as he only wants to carry on his own property or on public streets. Illegal everywhere else. :)

[tartanphantom]

Aren't there 4 states that have constitutional carry now. They seem to be doing just fine. Why would it be any different anywhere else?

 

Also Alabama doesnt require any training for conceal carry permit and the cost to get one is very low, or so thats what I've been told by some that live there.

 

Alabama is a "may issue" state, not a "shall issue" state. True, there is no required safety course, but whether you receive a permit is entirely at the discretion of the Sheriff of each county. The actual cost for a permit varies widely from county to county.

[RobertNashville]

The Handgun Permit itself needs to be removed and Constitutional Carry needs to be implemented. Anything short of that is a violation of my rights, regardless of what the SCOTUS says. It's plain as day, written in common language.

Yeah..that would be great...instead of being able to carry in 36 states I'd be allowed to carry in four.  :shake:

[RobertNashville]

Keeping a realistic view of the way things happen in Nashville, I welcome any and all help with the Legislature that I can get.

The major push by the TFA will be Constitutional Carry, but until we can get some true Conservative members of the House and senate elected, it is a pipe dream.  The "Moderate/Liberal" leadership we have, both in the legislature and executive branches of TN want us shoved to the side.  Harwell, McCormick and the new caucus chair Casada all view the firearms rights group as an evil to be dealt with, not worked with.  Madam Speaker has not voted in favor of a pro-gun issue in the last 5 years, don't expect her to start now.  With Matheny's ouster from the Pro Tempore spot, it will take a massive effort on the electorate's part to change the direction of an anti Rights Legislature.

Yuup...some of those "conservatives" need to be maggartized and will probably have to be prior to anything substantial being done.

[strickj]

We need constitutional carry and refinement of our HCP process; a couple of very minor adjustments would make the process much less hassle but I very much like that I can carry in some 36 other stats just with my TN HCP and I don't want to see that changed unless it's a change to being honored in more states.

 

Many places that do the class also do the fingerprints; I don't see how going to a sheriff's office would be better or more efficient? My fingerprinting took about 5 minutes tops; the only hard part was the machine getting a good read.

 

I just read GA's carry laws and I don't see how their process is significantly better...different; but not truly better at least as I look at them quickly.  More important I think; their permit is not honored in about 11 fewer states than TN. 

 

Never researched reciprocity. Take your word on it though.

Guess that's from GA not requiring any safety classes. I'd gladly trade carrying in an unvisited state for less restrictions in my home state.

 

Far as the differences in permitting process;

TN requires an 8 hour safety class which normally costs 80-100 dollars. There's day one wasted.

Ga does not require this.

 

TN requires tested applicants to apply at DoS and to pay 115 dollars for the application form and fingerprinting. These long lines makes days two wasted.

GA does not require this. You apply get your permit at your county's probate court. Application is short and fees low. More importantly, court employees are required to be good employees, unlike the often appointed "welfare to work" employees manning the long lines at TDoS.

 

TN requires you to make an appointment for fingerprinting after you file your application. This usually doesn't take very ling but it's still another unneeded trip.

GA does not do this. You simply show up at your closest jail at your convinced time. Not sure if 3rd parties can do this.

 

TN can take upto 90 days to issue.

GA is "instantly" (close enough to call instant. They even show you your permit before you leave the court).

 

[RobertNashville]

Never researched reciprocity. Take your word on it though.

Guess that's from GA not requiring any safety classes. I'd gladly trade carrying in an unvisited state for less restrictions in my home state.

 

Far as the differences in permitting process;

TN requires an 8 hour safety class which normally costs 80-100 dollars. There's day one wasted.

Ga does not require this.

 

TN requires tested applicants to apply at DoS and to pay 115 dollars for the application form and fingerprinting. These long lines makes days two wasted.

GA does not require this. You apply get your permit at your county's probate court. Application is short and fees low. More importantly, court employees are required to be good employees, unlike the often appointed "welfare to work" employees manning the long lines at TDoS.

 

TN requires you to make an appointment for fingerprinting after you file your application. This usually doesn't take very ling but it's still another unneeded trip.

GA does not do this. You simply show up at your closest jail at your convinced time. Not sure if 3rd parties can do this.

 

TN can take upto 90 days to issue.

GA is "instantly" (close enough to call instant. They even show you your permit before you leave the court).

 

Some of us travel outside of the great state of Tennessee and I know of at least three states I'm in frequently in that do not recognize GA's permit and probably would not if Tennessee had the same standards. ;)

 

The reciprocity states for GA are available - HANDGUNLAWUS is where I usually check such things but I'm sure the state of Georgia lists them on its website as well.

 

As for the fingerprinting, many places who give the training class do their fingerprinting on site...no appointment needed.

 

When I look at GA vs TN I see six of one and a half-dozen of the other; different..better in some respects, not in others so pretty much as wash when you add it up.

Edited December 13, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Constitutional carry could be accomplished and still allow for a permit, if only for the reason of reciprocity, Robert.

CC would be for this state, which would be finally recognizing the 2nd Amendment, and to cross state lines that have

shall or may issue, the permit process could still be available by annulling and rewriting current law to that effect.

 

Of course that requires reason and logic, while throwing every news agency out during the process. I might never

see it, but it is a worthy goal with the right legislators. It is consistent with self reliance and responsibility. Crime

would mre than likely drop and people would become real citizens after they realize a gun is only a tool, just like a

rake.

 

I know. I'm dreaming, but that's what we should be "shooting" for.

[RobertNashville]

Constitutional carry could be accomplished and still allow for a permit, if only for the reason of reciprocity, Robert.

CC would be for this state, which would be finally recognizing the 2nd Amendment, and to cross state lines that have

shall or may issue, the permit process could still be available by annulling and rewriting current law to that effect.

 

Of course that requires reason and logic, while throwing every news agency out during the process. I might never

see it, but it is a worthy goal with the right legislators. It is consistent with self reliance and responsibility. Crime

would mre than likely drop and people would become real citizens after they realize a gun is only a tool, just like a

rake.

 

I know. I'm dreaming, but that's what we should be "shooting" for.

I know it can and that is precisely the avenue TFA has been pursuing but that wasn't what was being suggested above by the OP...what was being suggested was abolishing the HCP process and only having constitutional carry.   Given the OPs statements I don't know that having both would be okay with him. ;)

[Varmint]

We need constitutional carry and refinement of our HCP process; a couple of very minor adjustments would make the process much less hassle but I very much like that I can carry in some 36 other stats just with my TN HCP and I don't want to see that changed unless it's a change to being honored in more states.
 
Many places that do the class also do the fingerprints; I don't see how going to a sheriff's office would be better or more efficient? My fingerprinting took about 5 minutes tops; the only hard part was the machine getting a good read.
 
I just read GA's carry laws and I don't see how their process is significantly better...different; but not truly better at least as I look at them quickly.  More important I think; their permit is not honored in about 11 fewer states than TN. 

 
Never researched reciprocity. Take your word on it though.
Guess that's from GA not requiring any safety classes. I'd gladly trade carrying in an unvisited state for less restrictions in my home state.
 
Far as the differences in permitting process;
TN requires an 8 hour safety class which normally costs 80-100 dollars. There's day one wasted.
Ga does not require this.
 
TN requires tested applicants to apply at DoS and to pay 115 dollars for the application form and fingerprinting. These long lines makes days two wasted.
GA does not require this. You apply get your permit at your county's probate court. Application is short and fees low. More importantly, court employees are required to be good employees, unlike the often appointed "welfare to work" employees manning the long lines at TDoS.
 
TN requires you to make an appointment for fingerprinting after you file your application.

 

Something must have changed since I got mine.
I was fingerprinted first, then turned in the application.
The fingerprints were electronically on file.

[Guest 270win]

Stevo,

 

If your father in law is a retired LEO, and he qualifies for HR218, he can carry anywhere he wants just like an off duty policeman in Arkansas.  He would have to qualify at the range every year.  At one time, retired police in Arkansas did not have to go to the range or even need any sort of license.  They just needed their retired ID and could carry anywhere they wanted with no restrictions.  Some of my family were not happy when it changed that they had to go to the range.

[Guest 270win]

Superman,

 

Alabama has a good set up for the most part.  I have never heard of any problems getting a license there.  You can carry anywhere, including schools, on a license.  Signs do not have force of law either.  About the only place you can't legally carry is at a protest.  Never been to a protest so not that big of a deal.  I would rather have Alabama's system than TN's system with the stupid restrictions we have.

[Il Duce]

Meh the price or the "hoops" never bothered me.

[TMF]

Meh the price or the "hoops" never bothered me.

Me neither, but that isn't the point. Everyone, regardless of economic status, should have access to the privilege of defending themselves.

[RobertNashville]

Me neither, but that isn't the point. Everyone, regardless of economic status, should have access to the privilege of defending themselves.

I agree but how much is too much? If $200 is unreasonable how about $100 or $75? Even $50 is a lot for some people.

I realize that $150-200 or so can be a LOT to some and pocket change to others but if someone can afford a decent handgun I would think they could afford the cost of getting the HCP.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The cost of a permit should only be for the bureaucratic cost of making the permit, if that. Nothing else. Of

course, if we didn't have to have the damned permit, it would cost nothing.

 

We let these bastard politicians tell us what things cost every day and that is what's wrong. It ends up a revenue

issue, not an issue based on the reason of a law's purpose. That's where justice took a side road to Hell.

[Chucktshoes]

Me neither, but that isn't the point. Everyone, regardless of economic status, should have access to the privilege of defending themselves.

I agree but how much is too much? If $200 is unreasonable how about $100 or $75? Even $50 is a lot for some people.
I realize that $150-200 or so can be a LOT to some and pocket change to others but if someone can afford a decent handgun I would think they could afford the cost of getting the HCP.

Should the ability to carry a gun be limited to only those that can afford "a decent handgun"? How much is a reasonable amount for it to cost to vote? The cost of the permit is, in my opinion, directly equivalent to poll taxes. They are an unconstitutional tax on the exercise of a constitutionally acknowledged right.

[Wyldk2]

Aren't there 4 states that have constitutional carry now. They seem to be doing just fine. Why would it be any different anywhere else?

 

Also Alabama doesnt require any training for conceal carry permit and the cost to get one is very low, or so thats what I've been told by some that live there.

Alabama only requires a background check, fingerprints and $20 a year for their "concealed" permit. And the permit is just a piece of paper( not like our "license-type permits"). The only thing i see where an Alabama permit would not be worth it is less states recognize the Alabama permits than those that recognize our Tennessee permits. And the fact that in Alabama you can only conceal a handgun, open carry only permitted in a vehicle.

 

My co-worker has his permit and he is from Alabama,

 

Oh and get this:

 

Alabama permit or not, State Prohibited areas include public schools, state parks, demonstrations held at a public place.

 

Federal areas include airport secure areas, post offices, federal buildings(including U.S. Army corps of Engineers property), Military bases, National cemetaries and any areas designated secure or prohibited by state or federal law.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Wyldk2

[TMF]

In my opinion, this is one of those things that taxes are for. The onus should not be on the individual to pay/prove he can carry, it should be on the state if they make that requirement. If the state doesn't want to pay for it, great. Constitutional carry solves that problem.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Chucktshoes' timestamp='1355444055' post='859674']Me neither, but that isn't the point. Everyone, regardless of economic status, should have access to the privilege of defending themselves. I agree but how much is too much? If $200 is unreasonable how about $100 or $75? Even $50 is a lot for some people. I realize that $150-200 or so can be a LOT to some and pocket change to others but if someone can afford a decent handgun I would think they could afford the cost of getting the HCP. Should the ability to carry a gun be limited to only those that can afford "a decent handgun"? How much is a reasonable amount for it to cost to vote? The cost of the permit is, in my opinion, directly equivalent to poll taxes. They are an unconstitutional tax on the exercise of a constitutionally acknowledged right.[/quote] I don't know, but I don't really want people caring around firearms are really nothing more than a piece of junk. How much should they have to pay for firearm to be safe - $100? $200? Even a "inexpensive "firearm is going to be a good piece of pocket change isn't it? The class is necessary for reciprocity with all the states we can carry in so that's not going to go away nor do I want it to... licensed instructors aren't going to do the classes for free nor should they. I don't know what the "right" or "fair" cost is but I am pretty sure that unless it's free somebody will bellyache about it. Not many things in life are free or should they be. Most people can't afford to go out and buy a radio station either but that doesn't mean they don't have freedom of speech or that somebody else should pay for it ? I'm all for constitutional carry But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the permit process we have in Tennessee now. Edited December 14, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Chucktshoes]

I don't know, but I don't really want people caring around firearms are really nothing more than a piece of junk. How much should they have to pay for firearm to be safe - $100? $200? Even a "inexpensive "firearm is going to be a good piece of pocket change isn't it?

The class is necessary for reciprocity with all the states we can carry in so that's not going to go away nor do I want it to... licensed instructors aren't going to do the classes for free nor should they.

I don't know what the "right" or "fair" cost is but I am pretty sure that unless it's free somebody will bellyache about it.

Not many things in life are free or should they be. Most people can't afford to go out and buy a radio station either but that doesn't mean they don't have freedom of speech or that somebody else should pay for it ?

I'm all for constitutional carry But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the permit process we have in Tennessee now.

I don't want to see an end to our permit system, I value the reciprocity with other states. I just think the cost is excessive to the point of unconstitutionality. We don't pay poll taxes when we vote to cover the costs of holding elections and we shouldn't have to pay a couple of hundred to the state and private entities to carry arms for self defense either. My solution is to add constitutional carry alongside our current permit system.

As far as not wanting folks to carry around cheap junk handguns, well, I don't think that is your choice to make. Masaad Ayoob wrote an article a number of years ago on that subject that I imagine most of us have read but I will repost as I think it is pertinent to this conversation.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob62.html