carry on property owned by a university

[me04070]

I work in a building that is owned by a university. I contend that we are not on campus so i carry (concealed). We are directly adjacent to campus and i am careful to stay off the grounds.

Any thoughts on my circumstances if i am wrong and the weapons on me and in my truck are noticed?

Another layer: public streets go through the campus. What does that mean for any of us just passing through? Is it similar to the clause that allows us to pick up/ drop off our kids at their schools?

[GlockSpock]

I have often wondered how such a thing could be construed. In Cleveland with have Cleveland State Community College as well as Lee University. I live near Lee, and sometimes my wife and I walk down Ocoee Street (in between Lee and Lee's dorms). I conceal while walking there, but I wonder whether that could cause trouble in certain circumstances. Cleveland State also have a city street that goes between several parking lots and the campus. Technically could driving that street and getting pulled over cause problems?

 

I'm guessing it is probably a "no" in both cases as long as your are a law abiding citizen, but am interested in what others have to say.

[walton6467]

I also work on a college campus and have done some research and talked to the administration and campus police about such issues. The most definitive answer I've been given is "it depends".

 

Where exactly are you in relation to campus? Open Carry? Concealed Carry? Why were you there? What is your relationship with the University? How did the police come to be involved? Are you a bystander or some part of a criminal investigation? Are the cops there BECAUSE of you?

 

I'm not an attorney or LEO, but my findings are that if you are on University property, that's legally part of campus, period. If you are on city streets that run through campus, you are not on campus, but that is subject to local ordinances.

 

My findings are also, concealed carry with eyes open and mouth closed are the best way to stay out of trouble regardless of where you are.

[KahrMan]

I believe any building owned by a school is considered school property whether it is part of the contiguous campus or not.  

[monkeylizard]

I think your office building is going to be a no-go.

 

TCA 39-17-13-09

[quote](b )  (1 ) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.
[/quote]

 

[quote](c )  (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection (c) for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.
[/quote]

 

I don't know of any other law that overrides this one, but if there is, OhShoot will be along to correct me.  :)

Edited December 12, 2012 by monkeylizard

[PolePosition]

Whenever I visit people that live in campus dorms or apartments (that are owned by the school but not directly on school grounds persay), like the rule above says, I disarm and leave it locked in the car when I exit and pray nobody attacks me.

[monkeylizard]

After reading back through that a little more closely, am I understanding 39-17-1309 correctly as follows?

 

(B ) is saying any weapon is off limits if carried with the intent to go armed.

(C ) is specific to firearms but leaves out the intent to go armed. The exception for non-student adults and vehicles is only for paragraph (c ).

 

If I followed that correctly, how does having a loaded handgun in the car while you're also in the car not violate (B )? I very much intend to go armed when carrying a handgun, unless I'm not understanding what the legal distinction of that phrase means.

[peejman]

As far as I'm aware, "intent to go armed" is very vague on purpose.  Gives the lawyers something to argue about.  The interpretations seems to vary from "intent to do someone harm with a weapon" to simply having one accessible. 

 

But I agree with the above... any property owned or used by an educational institution is a no-go.  Unless your simply picking up or dropping off a student.

[QuietDan]

You can be sure the university carry prohibitions do not concern, in any way,

any criminal who is intent on murder, robbery or rape;

and therefore, you should conduct yourself accordingly.

 

You can be sure the university carry prohibitions primarily concern, in many ways,

the university administrators, lawyers and legislators who concocted this ludicrous tangle of laws,

and therefore, you should conduct yourself accordingly.

 

The question then becomes, who are you more concerned about? Who can do more damage to you?

Criminals? School Administrators? Lawyers? Legislators? (Is there a difference among them?)

Who do you hold in lower contempt?

And therefore, you should conduct yourself accordingly.

 

There is one provision in this ludicrous tangle of laws that works in your interests,

and smarter persons here can quote it chapter and verse;

that if you use your weapon to protect your life or the lives of those around you,

you will not be prosecuted for carrying your weapon where you ought not to have carried it.

 

And therefore, you should conduct yourself accordingly.

Edited December 12, 2012 by QuietDan

[Guest bkelm18]

If the building is owned by the university, then you cannot carry there. Let's not forget that if you get caught, that's a possible felony offense. So yes, conduct yourself accordingly.

[Guest 270win]

I have wondered too about MSSA gun club.  We have school shooting team groups shoot at our club.  So is that considered then property used by a school and we all are breaking the law by carrying guns while they are practicing trap? 

 

This is such a stupid law that needs to be gotten rid of.

[monkeylizard]

If the building is owned by the university, then you cannot carry there. Let's not forget that if you get caught, that's a possible felony offense. So yes, conduct yourself accordingly.

 

This.

 

It's not the same as carrying past a properly posted sign at a store or restaurant. This is playing with a much bigger dog.

[Guest 270win]

The reason i have been concerned about the trap teams at the gun club and the rest of us carrying guns is that it can be a felony if you are on 'grounds used by a school'.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I don't go on campuses any more, so, if the possibility of doing so comes up again, I will act according to my

needs of safety. I usually don't frequent "gun free zones", though.

[Oh Shoot]

I don't know of any other law that overrides this one, but if there is, OhShoot will be along to correct me.  :)

 

Seems right on to me - "any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college" is about as clear as anything the legislature writes.

 

That being said, I lived in UT "married student" housing for a number of years in the 90's, always had at least one loaded gun in my abode, and knew several other folks who did also. Had a downstairs neighbor, big hunter, toted uncased rifles to car and back a lot. I also carried a big ole pocket knife the entire 21 years I worked at UT, and wasn't shy about using it during the normal course of the workday either. I also admit I didn't know much about weapons laws at the time.

 

As far as I'm aware, "intent to go armed" is very vague on purpose.

 

I feel pretty safe in opining that a loaded gun will always legally suffice for  "going armed" in TN, unless current laws are changed.

 

- OS

Edited December 12, 2012 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

I work in a building that is owned by a university. I contend that we are not on campus so i carry (concealed). We are directly adjacent to campus and i am careful to stay off the grounds.

Any thoughts on my circumstances if i am wrong and the weapons on me and in my truck are noticed?

Another layer: public streets go through the campus. What does that mean for any of us just passing through? Is it similar to the clause that allows us to pick up/ drop off our kids at their schools?

 

IANAL but you're dancing with fire...  If the school (and in TN schools include virtually ever college and university), owns, leases, or operates the property/grounds/building/room that you're in, it's a violation under TN law to carry there with very few exceptions (and HCP isn't one of them).

 

If the streets are public, then they are not covered under 39-17-1359 or the law that prohibits carry on school grounds... neither would the sidewalks of those public streets...  but I'd be very careful to verify the streets are public...  and not owned by the school through some crazy deal with the county or state.

[JayC]

I have wondered too about MSSA gun club.  We have school shooting team groups shoot at our club.  So is that considered then property used by a school and we all are breaking the law by carrying guns while they are practicing trap? 

 

This is such a stupid law that needs to be gotten rid of.

 

School sanctioned shooting events/clubs are one of the few exceptions to the school no carry law.

[Guest 270win]

School sanctioned shooting events/clubs are one of the few exceptions to the school no carry law.

 

 

I understand that is for the kids shooting at the gun club for their school teams, but what about folks like me just walking by with a gun whether to shoot on the club range or concealed on me?
 

[monkeylizard]

JayC, I think you're referring to being allowed to have a weapon on school property for school santioned events IF you're involved in the event as a participant or instructor.

 

I believe that razorback2003 is referring to the parts of TCA 39-17-1309 that I quoted above in post#5. It expressly states that grounds being used by a school are considered school property for the purposes of 1309. So if Central High is having a baseball practice at a city park that is not otherwise off-limits, it's off-limits while the practice is ongoing.

 

It's a two-way street there. You can have weapons on "school property" if you're involved in a school sanctioned event.

You can't have weapons in an otherwise OK location if a school is operating there.

 

By the letter of the law, I'd say a shooting range being used by a school's shooting team would be off limits to anyone who is not a student or an instructor. The same could be said about a Wendy's when a school bus unloads some field-trippers.

 

In reality, that's asinine and everyone knows it.

[JayC]

Monkey good catch, my bad I didn't completely read the post I was replying to...  Yes I agree, if a school (including colleges) is there doing a school sanctioned event the place is a no carry or handle firearms zone.

 

The current law is written very poorly and we've discussed this before...  the way the law is written if a college club walks into a restaurant while on a school activity, the owner and any armed patrons are in violation of the law.  If a school bus stops at McDonald's on the way back from a game and the kids get out to eat, it's a no carry zone while they're on site.

 

Yet another reason to repeal or remove certain parts of that silly law.

JayC, I think you're referring to being allowed to have a weapon on school property for school santioned events IF you're involved in the event as a participant or instructor.

 

I believe that razorback2003 is referring to the parts of TCA 39-17-1309 that I quoted above in post#5. It expressly states that grounds being used by a school are considered school property for the purposes of 1309. So if Central High is having a baseball practice at a city park that is not otherwise off-limits, it's off-limits while the practice is ongoing.

 

It's a two-way street there. You can have weapons on "school property" if you're involved in a school sanctioned event.

You can't have weapons in an otherwise OK location if a school is operating there.

 

By the letter of the law, I'd say a shooting range being used by a school's shooting team would be off limits to anyone who is not a student or an instructor. The same could be said about a Wendy's when a school bus unloads some field-trippers.

 

In reality, that's asinine and everyone knows it.

[DaveS]

I believe any building owned by a school is considered school property whether it is part of the contiguous campus or not.  

This...

 

Dave S

[Guest Nunya]

I think your office building is going to be a no-go.

 

TCA 39-17-13-09

 

 

 

 

I don't know of any other law that overrides this one, but if there is, OhShoot will be along to correct me.  :)

 

I work for a College and work in a sattelite campus.  I have always operated on this same logic.  I hate not carrying, but the law is pretty clear.

[Guest 270win]

This is a law that needs to be changed because everyone is probably breaking the law at the gun club when the trap teams come to practice.  Why should we be breaking the law when it is a private place and on top of it a gun club?

[JayC]

This is a law that needs to be changed because everyone is probably breaking the law at the gun club when the trap teams come to practice.  Why should we be breaking the law when it is a private place and on top of it a gun club?

 

Why should an otherwise law abiding citizen be disarmed when they visit a college campus?  Somehow across the street they're perfectly sane and safe, yet stepping one foot on a campus suddenly turns them into a crazy madman?

 

The issue is our gun laws in TN are bad, and they all need to go...  but I agree this one, 39-17-1351t, and the fact that 39-17-1308 doesn't say exception instead of defense are 3 of the worse laws on the books today.

[Guest 270win]

Absolutely.  You are right.  I think it should be legal for anyone with a permit to be able to carry in any school.  It works in other states, but why not in Tennessee?  Even in hippy California, you can carry in a school.