7 year old boy shot dead outside gun store.

[TMF]

I suppose my only point in my original post was that, based on my experience with the media - the story would inevitably change - and now it has. We've gone from one extreme to the other with wild accusations about this guy. I hate to say it, but the child is in a much better place than we are. My heart goes out to this poor family and particularly this man. I knew a guy that accidentally ran over his son and killed him while backing out of his driveway. He never intended for it to happen. He was in a hurry and careless and, next thing he knew, it was too late. We all do dumb things and sometimes those dumb things hurt the ones closest to us. There's not a punishment worse for this guy than what he's already going through - AND - will go through for the rest of his life. My friend was NEVER the same after he ran over his son. I'm just sorry for the whole thing happening.

It is truly a tragic story, and I can't imagine what the father is going through, but the fact remains that there is no acceptable explanation for how this happened. The laws of physics are what they are. Bullets fly generally straight out of a gun barrel, and firing pins don't smack primers unless a mechanical action tells them to do so. This puts the blame squarely in his hands, and the only logical explanation is gross negligence. It isn't that I don't empathize with the horror this father is feeling, but the notion that the gun "just went off" is absolute lunacy.

[Guest dfsixstring]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1355271350' post='858575']This puts the blame squarely in his hands, and the only logical explanation is gross negligence. [/quote] I can not nor will I defend his negligence, I'm just not ready to crucify him either. Dfsixstring SR9c LCP RST4S

[DaveTN]

It is truly a tragic story, and I can't imagine what the father is going through, but the fact remains that there is no acceptable explanation for how this happened. The laws of physics are what they are. Bullets fly generally straight out of a gun barrel, and firing pins don't smack primers unless a mechanical action tells them to do so. This puts the blame squarely in his hands, and the only logical explanation is gross negligence. It isn't that I don't empathize with the horror this father is feeling, but the notion that the gun "just went off" is absolute lunacy.

My background in machining, manufacturing, and guns tells me that any mechanical device can fail. You think it’s absolutely impossible for a striker fired pistol to discharge without someone pulling the trigger and anyone that questions that is a loon?

[chances R]

Terrible tragedy, and punishment enough with the loss of a son that the father is responsible for.  Prayers for the family for the lifelong guilt they will carry.  Let it be a lesson for others.  Everyday in a gun shop you can see many violate the 4 gun rules and nothing is said.  We all need to insist that everyone follow those rules in our presence.  NO EXCUSES.  You can see it with hunters and shooters at all levels  Complacency is the enemy and we ALL must follow the rules and practice what we preach.  I'm sorry for the loss, but the father had to violate 3 rules:  Always treat every gun as if it was loaded.   Never point it at anything you are not willing to shoot.   Keep your finger OFF the trigger until you are on the target and ready to shoot.  Unfortunately someone else will still have to re-learn the rules somewhere....sometime.

[Daniel]

Absent a reproducible event or a "miraculous" breaking of multiple safeties which are built into the gun... yes.

[TMF]

My background in machining, manufacturing, and guns tells me that any mechanical device can fail. You think it’s absolutely impossible for a striker fired pistol to discharge without someone pulling the trigger and anyone that questions that is a loon?

I know a mechanical device can fail, but a trigger can't pull itself, and a striker fired weapon can't cock and fire itself. A lock in my house can fail, but the doorknob can't turn itself. My car can fail but it can't start on its own. The notion that guns can go off on their own is false and lunacy because it is something that is perpetuated so much despite being a falsehood.

In all my experience around firearms, the only time I've witnessed a firearm discharge itself was when the trigger assembly fell out of a M249 machine gun, but even then it was operator failure because the operator did not properly check his weapon and failed to notice a missing retention pin. Edited December 12, 2012 by TMF

[daddyo]

I just love the guys who think just because they've been careless with their firearms that everyone else has been. Classic projection. 

[daddyo]

My background in machining, manufacturing, and guns tells me that any mechanical device can fail. You think it’s absolutely impossible for a striker fired pistol to discharge without someone pulling the trigger and anyone that questions that is a loon?

 

 

Have you ever seen one fire all by itself?

Edited December 12, 2012 by DaddyO

[Guest TankerHC]

I prefer to be above ground.

Yea, that old saying "Every day above ground is a good day". That applies to me too.

[RobertNashville]

I just love the guys who think just because they've been careless with their firearms that everyone else has been. Classic projection. 

And I love the fact that there are, apparently, several perfect people around who never ever under any circumstances whatsoever make a mistake...I used to think there was only one of those guys.

Edited December 12, 2012 by RobertNashville

[TMF]

And I love the fact that there are, apparently, several perfect people around who never ever under any circumstances whatsoever make a mistake...I used to think there was only one of those guys.

Yeah, sometimes I leave the toilet seat up and forget to roll the windows up on my truck. I've never had an ND or exposed my kid to a life threatening danger. I know, crazy. I must be in the minority.

Having an ND into a child is a pretty big effing deal. That isn't a mistake; that is a catastrophic failure that is inexcusable. Edited December 12, 2012 by TMF

[Guest TankerHC]

Yeah, sometimes I leave the toilet seat up and forget to roll the windows up on my truck. I've never had an ND or exposed my kid to a life threatening danger. I know, crazy. I must be in the minority.
 

 

I can actually count the times I have had "neglegent" incidents with firearms. 3 Civilian and one Military. 1. I swept the Master Range Safety Officers truck with a 22 when I turned around to wave. He got out of the truck and let me know I did it, nicely. 2. I swept my own forearm while Comp practicing with an instructor, he informed me, you just swept yourself. 3. During some comp training, the instructor asked if I wanted to try his $3000 Browning Hi-Power Comp Gun, he handed it to me, the thing must have had a 1/2 pound trigger, the gun was pointed down range, I touched the trigger and fired the gun. Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, John Lott and a bunch of others classify the last one as an "Accidental Discharge" rather than a "Negligent Discharge" because the weapon was on a range and pointed down range from a firing position. Happens all the time even with the pro gunner. And thats it. Not perfect, but I try not to accidentally kill anyone.

 

This may sound silly, but I have been around guns all my life and shooting since I was 4 years old. In 46 years I guarantee ny round count is in the millions, (20+ years as a Tanker makes that number reasonable), and I am afraid of guns. Not a phobia like fear. But a healthy fear and respect that keeps me on my toes when I am handling them, Which in turn prevents me from having too many negligent incidents.

Edited December 12, 2012 by TankerHC

[daddyo]

And I love the fact that there are, apparently, several perfect people around who never ever under any circumstances whatsoever make a mistake...I used to think there was only one of those guys.

 

Kind of overstating it, aren't you? No one here has claimed to be perfect. But making a tragic mistake with a firearm is nothing I have any interest in, so I am overly careful when it comes to that, to the point of being ridiculous sometimes.

 

Once you do something like this father did, there's no taking it back.

[DaveTN]

I know a mechanical device can fail, but a trigger can't pull itself, and a striker fired weapon can't cock and fire itself. A lock in my house can fail, but the doorknob can't turn itself. My car can fail but it can't start on its own. The notion that guns can go off on their own is false and lunacy because it is something that is perpetuated so much despite being a falsehood.

In all my experience around firearms, the only time I've witnessed a firearm discharge itself was when the trigger assembly fell out of a M249 machine gun, but even then it was operator failure because the operator did not properly check his weapon and failed to notice a missing retention pin.

You can always find a reason, I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be lack of maintenance or caused by Bubba deciding he’s qualified to do a trigger job or modify the FCG. I’m not saying that is what happened in this case, I’m just saying my experience with mechanical devices doesn’t allow me the same absolute certainty that a gun can’t fire without a negligent act that you have.

I’m not arguing with you; you may well be right.

I hope this Xmas season this serves as a reminder that you just can’t be careful enough. It’s a shame this young boy had to die. And I can’t even imagine what his family; especially his Father is going through. Please clear those weapons after removing a magazine and use extreme care handling a loaded firearm.

[RobertNashville]

Yeah, sometimes I leave the toilet seat up and forget to roll the windows up on my truck. I've never had an ND or exposed my kid to a life threatening danger. I know, crazy. I must be in the minority....

No...what's crazy, as well as dangerous, is people who think it can't happen to them.

 

No one here is impervious to making a mistake with a firearm.
 

[RobertNashville]

You can always find a reason, I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be lack of maintenance or caused by Bubba deciding he’s qualified to do a trigger job or modify the FCG. I’m not saying that is what happened in this case, I’m just saying my experience with mechanical devices doesn’t allow me the same absolute certainty that a gun can’t fire without a negligent act that you have.

I’m not arguing with you; you may well be right.

I hope this Xmas season this serves as a reminder that you just can’t be careful enough. It’s a shame this young boy had to die. And I can’t even imagine what his family; especially his Father is going through. Please clear those weapons after removing a magazine and use extreme care handling a loaded firearm.

Damn it Dave, you keep saying things lately that I agree with and I feel almost required to "like" your posts...you and I have had some real disagreements in the past and I'm starting to miss those exchanges. ;)

[daddyo]

No...what's crazy, as well as dangerous, is people who think it can't happen to them.

That's exactly why we don't have them... because we fully understand that it can.

[DaveTN]

I'm starting to miss those exchanges. ;)

I got stepped on; I'm not allowed to do that anymore. Obviously though; the same thing didn't happen to you.

[RobertNashville]

...Obviously though; the same thing didn't happen to you.

I'm not sure how to take that...but I'm thinking it wasn't a compliment.

[TMF]

No...what's crazy, as well as dangerous, is people who think it can't happen to them.

No one here is impervious to making a mistake with a firearm.

Exactly, I realize that it can happen to me, which is why I have taken many steps since my kids have come along to prevent accidents from happening. Furthermore, making the decision to place your finger on a trigger or have a firearm (loaded or unloaded) pointed toward a child is not a mistake I choose to make. In fact, I couldn't even classify that as a mistake. That is classified as gross negligence in my book. Perhaps you read from a different book, and that's your business, but do not project your own negligent tendencies to the whole of the rest of us. I will not have such a thing happen because I recognize the possibility of a tragedy occurring if I don't make the steps to prevent it.

[RobertNashville]

Exactly, I realize that it can happen to me, which is why I have taken many steps since my kids have come along to prevent accidents from happening. Furthermore, making the decision to place your finger on a trigger or have a firearm (loaded or unloaded) pointed toward a child is not a mistake I choose to make. In fact, I couldn't even classify that as a mistake. That is classified as gross negligence in my book. Perhaps you read from a different book, and that's your business, but do not project your own negligent tendencies to the whole of the rest of us. I will not have such a thing happen because I recognize the possibility of a tragedy occurring if I don't make the steps to prevent it.

You can say it all day long and twice on Sundays' but there is nothing you or anyone else can do to absolutely guarantee that such an event can not and will not ever happen to you.

[TMF]

You can say it all day long and twice on Sundays' but there is nothing you or anyone else can do to absolutely guarantee that such an event can not and will not ever happen to you.

I can start by never pointing a weapon at a child, or pulling the trigger of a weapon unless it is pointed in a safe direction. I can start there. I'm pretty sure I've been able to make it through life never having done this and have no plans of doing it in the future.

Is that so revolutionary that you're saying not everyone has the capacity to do this? I've trained half-wit, illiterate, uneducated booger-eating Arabs how to do this with pretty good success. Anyone that can't is a moron and shouldn't be handling weapons. This isn't advanced level stuff, Robert. Perhaps for you, but not me. Edited December 12, 2012 by TMF

[daddyo]

You can say it all day long and twice on Sundays' but there is nothing you or anyone else can do to absolutely guarantee that such an event can not and will not ever happen to you.

Wow.... Just wow.

[RobertNashville]

I can start by never pointing a weapon at a child, or pulling the trigger of a weapon unless it is pointed in a safe direction. I can start there. I'm pretty sure I've been able to make it through life never having done this and have no plans of doing it in the future.

Is that so revolutionary that you're saying not everyone has the capacity to do this? I've trained half-wit, illiterate, uneducated booger-eating Arabs how to do this with pretty good success. Anyone that can't is a moron and shouldn't be handling weapons. This isn't advanced level stuff, Robert. Perhaps for you, but not me.

No need to get insulting with the "this isn't advanced level stuff except maybe for Robert (me)" bit.

 

No one and I do mean no one is beyond making a mistake...I don't care how careful they are or how much training they've had or how large or small their IQ is or whether they stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...that's not intended to be a criticism of you or anyone else it's just a simple recognition of a pretty *obvious truth that people are humans and humans make mistakes; sometimes the effects are tragic.

 

 

* At least I thought it was obvious - apparently there are people around who truly are incapable of making a mistake. :shrug:

Edited December 12, 2012 by RobertNashville

[TMF]

No need to get insulting with the "this isn't advanced level stuff except maybe for Robert (me)" bit.



* At least I thought it was obvious - apparently there are people around who truly are incapable of making a mistake. :shrug:

Your first paragraph and last paragraph are in conflict, Robert.

I'm sorry you feel insulted. I prefer to be direct with my comments as opposed to making passive aggressive remarks aimed at folks. That kinda stuff is what chicks do so that they can elicit a certain response and play the victim. At any rate, perhaps tomorrow you can put on your thick skin when you wake up and not get your feewings hurt as easily. Edited December 12, 2012 by TMF