Is this legal?

[Guest DarylDixon]

I'm taking my wife to the range for the first time. We'll be bringing 4 handguns with us. We'd like to go shooting and then go out for a burger and a beer. I know that I can't carry a firearm into a restaurant if I'm going to have a beer, so we will be locking them all up in the trunk when we leave the range. If we each have a beer and drive home (under the legal limit) is there anything illegal about having firearms locked in the trunk? I do have a permit, but I'm not sure if this is ok or not.

[Lumber_Jack]

Keep guns and ammo separate and you'll be fine. Put ammo in back seat, guns in trunk and you're fine.

In all reality. You can carry AFTER having a beer, just not WHILE having a beer in a restaurant. but that's a personal choice. Edited December 8, 2012 by Lumber_Jack

[GlockSpock]

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]In all reality. You can carry AFTER having a beer, just not WHILE having a beer in a restaurant. but that's a personal choice.[/font][/color][/quote]

Often my wife and I will go to a nice resteraunt, and she will have a drink. I will refrain from even trying hers just to stay on the safe side of things. Are you telling me that if I leave my sidearm in the car while eating, I can have a drink (such as a single glass of wine), and then be perfectly legal if I rearm myself after exciting the restaurant?

[Pain103]

[quote name='Lumber_Jack' timestamp='1354997782' post='856943']
In all reality. You can carry AFTER having a beer, just not WHILE having a beer in a restaurant. but that's a personal choice.
[/quote]

That's incorrect. TCA 39-17-1321 (a) covers possession of handgun under the influence. 39-17-1321b subsection applies to drinking while in an establishment while armed. You can't be in possession of the handgun while under the influence. There is no per se influence level for this statute like DUI has a per se level of .08 BAC. I don't even risk it. If I'm going to have a drink the gun stays at home. Edited December 8, 2012 by Pain103

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='CZ9MM' timestamp='1354998623' post='856948']

Often my wife and I will go to a nice resteraunt, and she will have a drink. I will refrain from even trying hers just to stay on the safe side of things. Are you telling me that if I leave my sidearm in the car while eating, I can have a drink (such as a single glass of wine), and then be perfectly legal if I rearm myself after exciting the restaurant?[/quote]

Well that's the way I understand it. Edited December 8, 2012 by Lumber_Jack

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='Pain103' timestamp='1354999387' post='856953']

That's incorrect. TCA 39-17-1321 (a) covers possession of handgun under the influence. 39-17-1321b subsection applies to drinking while in an establishment while armed. You can't be in possession of the handgun while under the influence. There is no per se influence level for this statute like DUI has a per se level of .08 BAC. I don't even risk it. If I'm going to have a drink the gun stays at home.[/quote]

So what's to judge "influence"? It's implied that the person is impaired by the substance. Sure it would take a lawyer to defend that, but if you've shot someone, you'll be there anyways. That's why I stated its a choice. I don't do it, but I know others that do.

[GlockSpock]

[quote]That's incorrect. TCA 39-17-1321 (a) covers possession of handgun under the influence. 39-17-1321b subsection applies to drinking while in an establishment while armed. You can't be in possession of the handgun while under the influence. There is no per se influence level for this statute like DUI has a per se level of .08 BAC. I don't even risk it. If I'm going to have a drink the gun stays at home.[/quote]

WIthout getting into different statutes, that is exactly how I understood it and was told by the instructor during my safety course for my HCP. I guess I will continue to do exactly as I have been, regardless of what one may or may not get away with. A surefire way to play it safe is keep the alcohol away from your blood while in possession of a firearm. I imagine if you had to use the firearm for self defense and you have a BAC of anything, a defense attorney for the unfortunate soul that became a bullet magnet could have a field day with those numbers, regardless of what they were.

[Steelharp]

Keep it basic.

Carry? Don't drink.
Drink? Don't carry.

[Lumber_Jack]

Remember, I never said it was a good idea.

They just don't haul you off to jail for having a gun after consuming a beer. They could, but it's a matter of discretion.

[NRA]

[quote name='Lumber_Jack' timestamp='1354997782' post='856943']
In all reality. You can carry AFTER having a beer, just not WHILE having a beer in a restaurant. but that's a personal choice.
[/quote]

Say what?

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='NRA' timestamp='1355008848' post='856996']

Say what?[/quote]

Did I stutter?

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='Lumber_Jack' timestamp='1354997782' post='856943']
....In all reality. You can carry AFTER having a beer, just not WHILE having a beer in a restaurant. but that's a personal choice.
[/quote]
[quote name='Pain103' timestamp='1354999387' post='856953']
That's incorrect. TCA 39-17-1321 (a) covers possession of handgun under the influence. 39-17-1321b subsection applies to drinking while in an establishment while armed. You can't be in possession of the handgun while under the influence. There is no per se influence level for this statute like DUI has a per se level of .08 BAC. I don't even risk it. If I'm going to have a drink the gun stays at home.
[/quote]

Of course, you're both correct.

According to TCA, the only time you are immediately irrefutably guilty re mixing booze and carry is in a public establishment and you have even one sip of one alcoholic drink.

But yes, possession under the influence is certainly just another gray area in TCA -- if push came to shove, you might get off with a BAC under .08 argued as a reasonable standard, or you might not. Certainly there's nothing in the carry laws to support either guess. There's also no requirement for a BAC to even be taken.

To further complicate things, IF you violate the drinking in a public establishment, AND are determined to be under the influence, then besides other sentencing you lose your HCP for three years (even though you'd lose it for the duration of the sentence of the Class A misdemeanor anyway -- another unspecified part of the statute is whether the 3 years suspension is in addition to the Class A 'meanor suspension).

So all in all, I'd feel rather nervous myself if my breath even smelled of drinking near beer, and won't even do that and carry (or drive). Who needs the possible hassle even if not convicted, eh?

- OS Edited December 9, 2012 by Oh Shoot

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='Oh Shoot' timestamp='1355013582' post='857026']


.

So all in all, I'd feel rather nervous myself if my breath even smelled of drinking near beer, and probably wouldn't even do that and carry (or drive). Who needs the possible hassle even if not convicted, eh?

- OS[/quote]

This was my point all along, of course it's not worth the risk, but it's not black and white.

[DaveTN]

It’s pretty black and white to me. If a cop thinks your drinking is an issue and you are carrying a gun; it’s a problem. As Pain103 points out there is no BAC limit requirement.

And even if there was a BAC limit most people have no idea what a .08 is.

The OP asked a question and the answer is… No it’s not okay. Transport it the same as if you didn’t have a permit; unloaded and inaccessible.

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1355016841' post='857046']It’s pretty black and white to me. If a cop thinks your drinking is an issue and you are carrying a gun; it’s a problem. As Pain103 points out there is no BAC limit requirement.

And even if there was a BAC limit most people have no idea what a .08 is.

The OP asked a question and the answer is… No it’s not okay. Transport it the same as if you didn’t have a permit; unloaded and inaccessible.[/quote]

Actually the OP asked if he locked the guns in his trunk would he be OK. I was the one who muddled the conversation.

[monkeylizard]

Remember that TCA includes loaded magazines and clips in it's definition of loaded firearms.*

Guns and [b]empty[/b] mags and clips in the trunk. Ammo in the back seat.



*Officer's discretion may apply, but that's how TCA defines it. Edited December 9, 2012 by monkeylizard

[Guest DarylDixon]

Thanks for all the replies. First off, my wife had a blast at the range. She loved the XD 9mm's, thought my XD .45 was a little much, and thought that the Smith & Wesson Governor (revolver that shoots .410 .45LC and .45 ACP) was way too much gun for her to handle. The only reason I have the Governor is because I figured in a home defense situation she could pick it up and just start pulling the trigger. Boy was I wrong. She couldn't pull the trigger unless she cocked the hammer first. So I guess we are going to sell it. Let me know if anyone is interested.

Anyway, what we did was empty all magazines and lock them in the trunk with the unloaded guns. We put the ammo in the back seat. We would not have been above the legal limit to drive if we had been pulled over, and I think we would have been legal in the way we were storing.

[cybernorris]

Remember that the smell of alcohol is on your breath often long after it is consumed and after the body has taken care of it.

[Steelharp]

[quote name='cybernorris' timestamp='1355030677' post='857118']
Remember that the smell of alcohol is on your breath often long after it is consumed and after the body has taken care of it.
[/quote]

As do other things... I'm reminded of a Tammy Wynette story...

[deerslayer]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1355016841' post='857046']
It’s pretty black and white to me. If a cop thinks your drinking is an issue and you are carrying a gun; it’s a problem. As Pain103 points out there is no BAC limit requirement.

And even if there was a BAC limit most people have no idea what a .08 is.

The OP asked a question and the answer is… No it’s not okay. Transport it the same as if you didn’t have a permit; unloaded and inaccessible.
[/quote]

+1

gray area = the cop at the scene is the judge = no thanks. Not to mention, carrying or not, if you drink before driving, you can still get locked up without blowing a .08.

[Guest Gen. Patton]

Legally speaking it's a bit free-er and less complicated than one might think. First of all the statue dosen't say if you've had one drink you cannot be armed, it says one may not carry "under the influence" meaning that if you've had a drink in a bar you're fine as long as you weren't armed while you did it. If you leave the bar and arm yourself before getting into your car and leaving you have not broken the law either if you have not reached the legal limit for a state of intoxication which is .08 BAC. The standard is the same because as far as the state of Tennessee is concerned > .08 BAC is intoxication. The BAC of .08 standard is used for more than just DUI offenses it is used by the state to determine legal intoxication. It's the same BAC limit for public intoxication or for operating heavy equipment. Even so, it's still not a good idea to drink while armed because most people, especially those of us with a high tollerance for alcohol, are very poor judges of exactly how drunk we are especially when we're drinking and our judgement is that much more impaired. About 2 shots of alcohol or about 2 or 3 beers can get an average adult to .08 BAC easily, whether you're feeling it or not, and if you're like me 2 shots isn't even getting started yet. Two shots is just enough to get me mad! Edited December 10, 2012 by Gen. Patton

[DaveTN]

[quote name='Gen. Patton' timestamp='1355100269' post='857473']
Legally speaking it's a bit free-er and less complicated than one might think. [/quote]
Thanks for clearing up the legalities of that. I didn’t know that in Tennessee at .07% BAC they would just let me walk/drive away carrying my gun.

[Guest Gen. Patton]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1355101306' post='857484']
Thanks for clearing up the legalities of that. I didn’t know that in Tennessee at .07% BAC they would just let me walk/drive away carrying my gun.
[/quote]

Well, legally they don't have a leg to stand on to do anything to you unless you're breaking the law and the last time I looked they had to pass laws through the legislature and make them known to the public before they can enforce them. If there is some other standard that they have specifically carved out for handgun carriers that I don't know about then please sir, enlighten me. They can give you a stern warning about toeing the line with your and everyone elses safety by being intoxicated in public while armed but unless they lie and say you blew a .08 then if you were at .07 yeah they would have to let you walk/drive away as far as I know. Why wouldn't they? Edited December 10, 2012 by Gen. Patton

[TMF]

[quote name='Gen. Patton' timestamp='1355101937' post='857492']

Well, legally they don't have a leg to stand on to do anything to you unless you're breaking the law and the last time I looked they had to pass laws through the legislature and make them known to the public before they can enforce them. If there is some other standard that they have specifically carved out for handgun carriers that I don't know about then please sir, enlighten me. They can give you a stern warning about toeing the line with your and everyone elses safety by being intoxicated in public while armed but unless they lie and say you blew a .08 then if you were at .07 yeah they would have to let you walk/drive away as far as I know. Why wouldn't they?[/quote]

Ha, I wouldn't say it's advisable to test this. Of course, it somebody wants to be a wind dummy for this please let me know how it goes.

[Guest Gen. Patton]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1355103111' post='857509']
Ha, I wouldn't say it's advisable to test this. Of course, it somebody wants to be a wind dummy for this please let me know how it goes.
[/quote]

I didn't say it was smart to play with it like that but legally it's not against the law to be .07 and armed. Now a lot of law enforcement officers may say "Yeah dude .07's close enough. You're going to jail tonight!" And since there's probably not a court in the country that would take one of our words over a law enforcement officers word in that sitution you could concievably blow a .07 and still be punished like you really blew a .08 but in a prefect world where everyone is 100% honest all the time, technically, yeah they would have to let you walk. Didn't say it would definately happen. Didn't say this was a perfect world either. Just sayin'.