Here we go..Zimmerman's at it again!

[TMF]

[quote name='mcurrier' timestamp='1354918554' post='856636']
Hence the reason that in America, people are considered innocent until [i]proven[/i] guilty.
[/quote]

I don't think I've suggested anything to the contrary.

[mcurrier]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354920248' post='856646']
I don't think I've suggested anything to the contrary.
[/quote]
Just a general comment TMF, not directed at you, just bouncing off your quote for those that don't understand that concept as it relates to Zimmerman not being proven guilty yet.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='mcurrier' timestamp='1354918091' post='856635']

Some of us weigh the known f-a-c-t-s, testimony and indications based on the information made public thus far, others gobble up the version that the [i]media[/i] serves.
[/quote]
If you are trying to call me an arm chair quarterback or saying I am passing judgment on this guy; I am guilty as charged. As I have said many times; it’s what we do, it’s who we are. It’s just a discussion.

I know the facts in this case and I know the media hype. The facts that are not in dispute do not look good for Zimmerman. I’m crystal clear on the “concepts”. Although I acknowledge that I know nothing about Florida criminal law.

Again… I know this is not a popular opinion on this forum; but it is mine. I’m open to discussion of the facts or even our thoughts while we armchair quarter back. But I’m not going to have a discussion with anyone that is obviously making personal attacks.

I stood up for Zimmerman when they tried to keep him in jail. He doesn’t appear to be a flight risk and his life is in danger if he is in jail; let him stay out. I could not believe it when the New Black Panthers put a hit out on him and both the Justice Department and the State of Florida failed to act on that. That was without a doubt race driven. However, now it’s time for a trial.


[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354907215' post='856568']

The DA did not have enough to charge GZ.
After NBC released the doctored recording and the resulting public outcry and protests, they brought in anther special DA to file charges.

Even if you think GZ is guilty, you must admit that there is no evidence there to support malice or premeditation needed for 2nd degree murder.
[/quote]
I will absolutely admit that I don’t think there is enough to convict on 2nd degree murder. I think his reckless and negligent actions rise to the level of Involuntary Manslaughter. However, in one of the first threads we had a forum member that said he was an expert on Florida law and that manslaughter was not an option. If a reckless, negligent act that led to death of an innocent person is not a crime in Florida; so be it, he will be acquitted. But I expect to hear the state present their case. Anything less is unsatisfactory.

I kinda feel sorry for this guy. A prison sentence will probably be a death sentence for him. But then when I think about his actions; he shouldn’t walk free, that would not be justice.

[DaveS]

Folks I can only judge based on known facts...
A 17 year old was walking through a neighborhood he had full right to be in. Zman was in a truck and wanted to follow TM and 911 said "we don't need you to do that". Zman did it anyways. Some kind of way he got his *** handed to him, and shot/killed a 17 year old kid over it.

I know, I know...all ya'll gonna say Zman shot TM in self defense. Well folks, maybe, just maybe..TM beat the P*** out of Zman in self defense....ever think of that? Zman will have his day in court and so will TM's parents.

Good luck Zman!

Dave S

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='DaveS' timestamp='1354927216' post='856679']
Folks I can only judge based on known facts...
A 17 year old was walking through a neighborhood he had full right to be in. Zman was in a truck and wanted to follow TM and 911 said "we don't need you to do that". Zman did it anyways. Some kind of way he got his *** handed to him, and shot/killed a 17 year old kid over it.

I know, I know...all ya'll gonna say Zman shot TM in self defense. Well folks, maybe, just maybe..TM beat the P*** out of Zman in self defense....ever think of that? Zman will have his day in court and so will TM's parents.

Good luck Zman!

Dave S
[/quote]Dave I think you are leaving out a couple of critical things that can have a big impact on who was really at fault in Martin's death...

1. Zimmerman did nothing illegal, as far as I can tell, in initially following Martin no matter what the 911 operator told him to do or not do and Zimmerman had as much right to "be there" as anyone else.

2. And this is where things seem most unclear, it appears that Zimmerman had stopped following Martin and was either headed back to his vehicle or even getting into his vehicle and it was then that Martin, according to some, began the physical altercation.

Looking at it from the Martin's side...if Zimmerman really was "disengaging" then any "threat" Martin might have felt, legitimately or otherwise, was gone and he should also have disengaged just like any of us who feel threatened, pull our weapon and the bad guy runs away. We don't have the right to shoot at that point and Martin didn't have to right to start pounding on Zimmerman.

Now, I'll admit...I'm going from memory here so if could be I have some of the "facts" wrong. Also, I think there will be a lot of facts to come out that we simply don't have. All I'm sure of right now is that I haven't seen enough verifiable facts to cause me to believe that Zimmerman is guilty of anything other than trying to protect his neighborhood.

[Links2k]

I don't care how this situation turns out. The end results won't make me feel like a winner or loser. I will only maintain that a individual has a right to walk down any public street thru any neighborhood regardless of his/her appearance. If you think that individual is up to no good, then allow our paid professional law enforcement to intervene and make that determination.

[DaveS]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354927956' post='856688']
Dave I think you are leaving out a couple of critical things that can have a big impact on who was really at fault in Martin's death...

1. Zimmerman did nothing illegal, as far as I can tell, in initially following Martin no matter what the 911 operator told him to do or not do and Zimmerman had as much right to "be there" as anyone else.

2. And this is where things seem most unclear, it appears that Zimmerman had stopped following Martin and was either headed back to his vehicle or even getting into his vehicle and it was then that Martin, according to some, began the physical altercation.

Looking at it from the Martin's side...if Zimmerman really was "disengaging" then any "threat" Martin might have felt, legitimately or otherwise, was gone and he should also have disengaged just like any of us who feel threatened, pull our weapon and the bad guy runs away. We don't have the right to shoot at that point and Martin didn't have to right to start pounding on Zimmerman.

Now, I'll admit...I'm going from memory here so if could be I have some of the "facts" wrong. Also, I think there will be a lot of facts to come out that we simply don't have. All I'm sure of right now is that I haven't seen enough verifiable facts to cause me to believe that Zimmerman is guilty of anything other than trying to protect his neighborhood.
[/quote]

Well, I may have forgotten some too. All I know is, someone took an a$$ whoop'n and someone got shot. I have my own opinions as well as you.
I do however feel for Zman, as TM parents are going to pursue him relentlessly in civil court. Zman will die if sent to prison. I feel for all involved. I, me alone, personaly feel this whole thing could have been prevented had Zman stayed in his truck and waited on the police. I can't wait for the trial!!!

Dave S

[mcurrier]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354926402' post='856671']
I know the facts in this case and I know the media hype. The facts that are not in dispute do not look good for Zimmerman. I’m crystal clear on the “concepts”. Although I acknowledge that I know nothing about Florida criminal law.

Again… I know this is not a popular opinion on this forum; but it is mine. I’m open to discussion of the facts or even our thoughts while we armchair quarter back. But I’m not going to have a discussion with anyone that is obviously makking personal attacks.
[/quote]Dave, no one is attacking you, not I for sure. But several of us are very confused that you take the position that you have stated and you say that you are basing it on the known facts of the case, it is obvious that we are not talking about the same 'facts', as we don't see how anyone could come to the conclusions that you have given the information that we (not you, for we don't know what you've read) have seen. It's almost as if someone is playing a cruel joke on all of us by feeding a few one story, and a few others a different story. Just rying to explain our surprise at two such differing conclusions to what we all assume is based on the same info. It's like one group is coming up with the answer of '37' and the other group with '22' and both wondering how the other arrived at their conclusion. Not trying to fight with you or attack you, just very surprised/confused by your conclusion. WE/I just don't get it. I think it's all based on our differing perceptions of what we "think" has been presented as the evidence so far. Some seem to think Z was still following Martin and some that Z was headed back to or had returned to his truck. This seems to be a major point of disagreement. Sorry for long paragraph, typing on tablet which doesn't seem to work well on this forum for some reason.

[Links2k]

[quote name='mcurrier' timestamp='1354929250' post='856700']


Some seem to think Z was still following Martin and some that Z was headed back to or had returned to his truck. This seems to be a major point of disagreement. Sorry for long paragraph, typing on tablet which doesn't seem to work well on this forum for some reason.
[/quote]

This has always been the reason for disagreement. Zimmermans actions at this point will determine whether he gets nuked our not.

[Garufa]

If you were on your back having your head beat on the concrete what would you do?

Since so many seem to want to rehash all of this again, answer that question.

[strickj]

[quote name='DaveS' timestamp='1354927216' post='856679']
Zman shot TM in self defense. Well folks, maybe, just maybe..TM beat the P*** out of Zman in self defense....ever think of that?
Good luck Zman!

Dave S
[/quote]
Nope, never thought of that.
GZ lost sight of and stopped following TM while he was still on the line with 911. What happened in the next few seconds, no one knows except GZ and TM... and one of them is pulling a Duke Bush and will never tell.
What we do know is that GZ's face and head was bloody, while TM had no injuries to indicate an attack from GZ. We also know that TM was high at the time of death.

The lack of injuries on TM is the major reason why charges were not filled by officers or the DA.
[quote]
The medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: the fatal gunshot wound on his chest and broken skin on his knuckles, according to WFTV. [url="http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-05-16/news/31732179_1_autopsy-results-knuckles-injuries"]http://articles.nyda...uckles-injuries[/url]
[/quote]


TM was a thug. This is not speculation and is evidenced by his Facebook posts, being expelled from school after being caught with burglary tools and a bag of jewelry, suspended for marking gang graffiti at school and his final suspension of being caught with weed and a bong.


Maybe he would still be alive if his parents paid attention to the warning signs.

And I hate for the way this will sound, but we all know that TM would have ended up dead following the path he was on anyways. His thug life death came a bit early (how early, who knows?) from GZ instead of a defensive homeowner or another thug.

[Links2k]

[quote name='Garufa' timestamp='1354931543' post='856717']
If you were on your back having your head beat on the concrete what would you do?

Since so many seem to want to rehash all of this again, answer that question.
[/quote]
o
In this situation, after calling the cops, I would have stayed in my truck or home and let the real cops do there job. I have done this several times for stray dogs and strange people.That way the big scary football player never has a reason to attack me.

[RichardR]

[quote name='LINKS2K' timestamp='1354935387' post='856737']

o
In this situation, after calling the cops, I would have stayed in my truck or home and let the real cops do there job. I have done this several times for stray dogs and strange people.That way the big scary football player never has a reason to attack me.
[/quote]

Zimmerman didn't cower in his truck, so obviously he's at fault for Martin violently attacking him.

Because if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, Martin would not have attacked him & thus would still be alive.

That is the crux of the "Zimmerman is guilty" arguement is that correct?

[DaveTN]

[quote name='Garufa' timestamp='1354931543' post='8']
If you were on your back having your head beat on the concrete what would you do?

Since so many seem to want to rehash all of this again, answer that question.
[/quote] I wouldn't have put myself or a neighbors innocent kid in that situation. If I did, and started getting my azz kicked, Im pretty sure I wouldn't make things worse by killing someone.

[DaveTN]

[quote name=RichardR' timestamp='13549hadn't' post='856743']
Zimmerman didn't cower in his truck, so obviously he's at fault for Martin violently attacking him.

Because if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, Martin would not have attacked him & thus would still be alive.

That is the crux of the "Zimmerman is guilty" arguement is that correct?
[/quote]No that is not correct. If he hadnt chased TM down and scared him he would not be having to answer for his actions to a jury.

[Links2k]

[quote name='RichardR' timestamp='1354936458' post='856743']


Zimmerman didn't cower in his truck, so obviously he's at fault for Martin violently attacking him.

Because if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, Martin would not have attacked him & thus would still be alive.

That is the crux of the "Zimmerman is guilty" arguement is that correct?
[/quote]

I never said that he had to cower in his truck. If anyone can recall, in the first Zimmermann/Martin thread I said that he should have minded his business. I still feel that way. If he had to intervene, his self appointed responsibility ended once he contacted the authorities. Using common sense doesn't make you a coward.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354937093' post='856748']
I wouldn't have put myself or a neighbors innocent kid in that situation. If I did, and started getting my azz kicked, Im pretty sure I wouldn't make things worse by killing someone.
[/quote]Innocent kid? Is there a third person in this case?

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354937476' post='856753']
No that is not correct. If he hadnt chased TM down and scared him he would not be having to answer for his actions to a jury.
[/quote]Chased him down? Where exactly did that "fact" come from?

Followed him, or tried to follow him but I haven't heard any sources other than the Jackson/Sharpton crowd paid a picture of Zimmerman chasing Martin down.

[Guest Gwith40]

Go back and read the testimony of the star witness for the state. She actually helps the defense. Her version puts Martin going back to confront Zimmerman. And let's not forget the messages about Trayvon "putting the bangaz on the cracka".

If there is any integrity at all left in the state of Florida, this case is over. If you have seen the latest interview with attorney Crump, he implicates himself in witness tampering. Don't forget that Crump advised Traydad not to turn over the code to unlock the phone that Trayvon was supposedly carrying. Why on earth would he do that? What is he hiding? And why has this not been turned over to the defense yet? There may be more than one DeeDee. Crump claimed she was 16, but it turned out she was 18. Either she was two different people or he lied about her age, or he lied about who she was or all the above. By claiming the witness was 16, it would be much more difficult to question her. Listening to the recordings of "DeeDee", it sounds like two different people.

I believe it was Robert who made the point that a DA can take a case to trial without a grand jury. In the State of Florida it depends on the level of charge. I don't recall the exact rules but I believe a certain level actually requires a Grand Jury hearing. In any case, I have never heard of a DA doing that when a case was already going before the Grand Jury. I believe that was a blatant attempt to circumvent the process, for political reasons. The evidence available tends to back that view up.

If you look at some of the documents that were released today, you will find that there was a concensus amongst almost all present at meetings at the police department, including the DA investigator, that there was not enough evidence to charge Zimmerman. For some reason, after weeks of these meetings, one seargent changed his mind. Thats it. Apparently the DA investigator was not even aware that Zimmerman would be charged...and he was highly irritated. Paraphrasing, he said something like..."well, you have f'ed us up the ass now".

[Sam1]

This whole thing is just a complete cluster, even if all the charges are dropped, that guy is going to have to leave the country if he has hopes of ever living a reasonable life.