Can I legally "loan" a weapon to someone living outside TN?

[RobertNashville]

Hello, all!

I’m not sure what sub forum was best for this question but I could use some “legal” advice.

I have a good friend who I believe is a legal resident of Tennessee - he is a First Sgt, Army and currently stationed out of state. I don’t have even the slightest concern about his legal ability to own weapons or his ability to pass a background check, in fact, he has a TN HCP and I think a KY permit as well (he was stationed at Fort Campbell for quite a while).

He and his wife had their first baby just a few weeks ago. Due to financial concerns, he sold his last personal weapon a while ago and really doesn’t have the spare cash to buy another right now but I know he and his wife are both concerned about not having a good weapon in the house.


Anyway, I also know he has never owned but really likes 1911s – he’s shot several of mine. I’m thinking about loaning one to him until he can afford to buy something for himself and it would truly be a loan, not a transfer. My question is, can I do this legally? I’ll be seeing him and his wife here in Nashville as they are traveling over Christmas and want to loan him the weapon then; I just can’t figure out if this is “legal” or not?

Most of what I've found so far seems to deal with true transfers but I'm not sure if that applies; to me, a transfer means I'm selling or giving him the firearm and that is not what I'm doing.

I know, as a practical matter, no one is likely every going to know but I would still not want to break the law if I can avoid it.

If anyone can tell me for certain I’d appreciate it!!!

[maroonandwhite]

This is an interesting question that I'd also like to know the answer to. I was in this similar situation with my mother who lives in MS not too long ago.

I am going to guess that this is probably a grey area that isn't going to be easily addressed and will probably lean towards the "transfer required" side but who knows.

[Hozzie]

I can't speak to true legalities, but I can tell you that if it was me and I was really sure they would give it back when they can get their own, I would just give it to him. I might even ask him to sign a bill of sale just for pure liability unless you are sure he would say you sold it to him should something ever happen. If asked where he got it, an answer of so and so loaned it to me may not be good for you. God forbid he ever has to use it AND it is determined you only loaned it to him, I would think you could be held liable. If you "sell" it to him, it's on him until he "sells" it back to you.

My two cents. Edited December 6, 2012 by Hozzie

[RobertNashville]

I did just find this...[quote]Under Federal law, an individual may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he/she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. source: http://www.knesekguns.com/blog/can-you-lend-a-firearm-to-another-person-under-federal-law/ [/quote]

So maybe I'm in the clear with doing this. That said, while I'm sure he'll use it for "sporting purposes" (recreational shooting, etc.) that isn't the primary motivation. As you said, maroon; probably a "grey" area.

[maroonandwhite]

Not the best idea to recommend this in hind sight so removed. Edited December 6, 2012 by maroonandwhite

[Oh Shoot]

Yes, federal law specifically allows loan of a firearm. With no time limit specified for the loan.

Link above doesn't work for me, but 18USC 922 is here:
[url="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922"]http://www.law.corne...ode/text/18/922[/url]

Search page for "loan", mentioned three times I think.

Dunno about some of the more restrictive states' laws though.

- OS Edited December 6, 2012 by Oh Shoot

[maroonandwhite]

Just for conversation sake would it be beneficial to still type up some kind of agreement to make it clear that the weapon was loaned in case the borrower does have to use it? I may be making a mountain out of a mole hill but I can only imagine some lawyer trying to take advantage of this.

[RobertNashville]

I suspect some type of written agreement is a good idea just to be clear....since it's a firearm we are talking about there is always the opportunity for bad things to happen even with the best of intentions.

[Hershmeister]

I would think where he is residing would also play an important fact in this.

Is he in TN?

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='Hershmeister' timestamp='1354819379' post='855953']
I would think where he is residing would also play an important fact in this.

Is he in TN?
[/quote]

Doesn't matter with a loan as far as federal law.

But yeah, some states may have state laws that would deny this, but dunno if say FOID in IL or handgun purchase permit in NC, etc require that for loans too. Or the places where handgun possession without a permit is denied period, like NYC, Chicago, DC.

Probably in some of those places, the law wouldn't see "ownership" and "possession" as different, dunno.

- OS Edited December 6, 2012 by Oh Shoot

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Hershmeister' timestamp='1354819379' post='855953']
I would think where he is residing would also play an important fact in this.

Is he in TN?
[/quote]He's stationed in Missouri which I think is pretty "gun friendly" with its laws.

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354821778' post='855976']
He's stationed in Missouri which I think is pretty "gun friendly" with its laws.
[/quote]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it there.

Just remind him you're loaning it to him so he can plink once in a while (lawful sporting purposes).

- OS

Edited December 6, 2012 by Oh Shoot

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I wouldn't do a bill of sale, either. That might be seen as a violation. You know, FFL thing across state lines?

[Hershmeister]

I think you would both be better off having him either borrow from a friend in MS, or you just make him a personal loan of cash and he goes out on his own to buy something leaving you out of the equation.

You can't uniting the bell here

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='Hershmeister' timestamp='1354829559' post='856039']
I think you would both be better off having him either borrow from a friend in MS, or you just make him a personal loan of cash and he goes out on his own to buy something leaving you out of the equation.[/quote]

Federal law is clear -- you worry too much, and Missouri is MO.

- OS

[Hershmeister]

I'd still worry even if it is legal.

If he ever used the weapon in a shooting you can guarantee you will get dragged in the civil suit.

[Mike.357]

If you trust him loan him the gun. Clearly it is legal.

No need for paperwork. If you feel the need for paperwork then don't do it at all.

I am not sure how you could be held liable for anything he does with the gun.

[Hozzie]

[quote name='6.8 AR' timestamp='1354829304' post='856037']
I wouldn't do a bill of sale, either. That might be seen as a violation. You know, FFL thing across state lines?
[/quote]

If he has a TN DL then he is a resident of TN. If he is giving it to him while he is in TN, then no issue at all I wouldn't think as long as he is stationed there for the Service. Edited December 7, 2012 by Hozzie

[monkeylizard]

[quote name='Hozzie' timestamp='1354886487' post='856371']
If he has a TN DL then he is a resident of TN. If he is giving it to him while he is in TN, then no issue at all I wouldn't think as long as he is stationed there for the Service.
[/quote]

Maybe, and maybe not.

[url="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921"]http://www.law.corne...ode/text/18/921[/url]
This is the definitions section preceding the section 922 that OS linked to about loaning.
it says
[b](b ) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located. [/b] Edited December 7, 2012 by monkeylizard

[Hershmeister]

[quote name='Mike.357' timestamp='1354852085' post='856266']If you trust him loan him the gun. Clearly it is legal.

No need for paperwork. If you feel the need for paperwork then don't do it at all.

I am not sure how you could be held liable for anything he does with the gun.[/quote]

You will be sued civilly and it will cost you - even if you prevail in the end

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Hershmeister' timestamp='1354893472' post='856425']
You will be sued civilly and it will cost you - even if you prevail in the end
[/quote]Yeah...I can be sued...you can be sued...anyone can be sued...if I worried about all the ways I could be sued I'd be afraid to leave my house (and that wouldn't protect me).

What I was trying to clarify was whether loaning a friend a firearm for a while violated any federal or state laws and it doesn't look to me as if it does and if I someday get sued then I'll handle that when it happens. Edited December 7, 2012 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='monkeylizard' timestamp='1354890400' post='856405']
Maybe, and maybe not.

[url="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921"]http://www.law.corne...ode/text/18/921[/url]
This is the definitions section preceding the section 922 that OS linked to about loaning.
it says
[b](b ) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located. [/b]
[/quote]Not only an TN DL but a TN HCP and his vehicle is titled/tagged in TN last time I saw him back in April and we'll both be in TN when I loan him the weapon.

But, as I read the laws and the helpful posts made here it doesn't look to me as if what state he lives in matters. If he lived in IL or NY or CA or some other states then it might be a different situation; thankfully he lives in a state that is more "gun friendly" than TN as far as I can tell. Edited December 7, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Hershmeister]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354894012' post='856426']What are you basing that statement on?[/quote]


I'm not a lawyer but have enough personal experience with civil suits to know that people can sue you for complete bull$hit and you'll spend money time and emotional energy defending yourself.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Hershmeister' timestamp='1354894663' post='856435']
I'm not a lawyer but have enough personal experience with civil suits to know that people can sue you for complete bull$hit and you'll spend money time and emotional energy defending yourself.
[/quote]Yet you, apparently, own a firearm or two (admittedly an assumption on my part but I think a reasonable one given your presence on the Tennessee Gun Owners Forum)...If you are that worried about potential lawsuits wouldn't it be prudent to stay away from firearms altogether?

[scoutfsu]

[quote name='monkeylizard' timestamp='1354890400' post='856405']
Maybe, and maybe not.

[url="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921"]http://www.law.corne...ode/text/18/921[/url]
This is the definitions section preceding the section 922 that OS linked to about loaning.
it says
[b](b ) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located. [/b]
[/quote]

You are also a resident of your state HOR.

There's zero problem here. You're loaning a weapon to a friend, who is a TN resident, while he is physically in TN and he has no violations which would keep him from owning a firearm.