Disarmed in a traffic stop

[Guest sventvkg]

[quote name='jeepbus' timestamp='1354844715' post='856175']
The officer had every right ,and he was a complete professional ,with that said. If I were in the same situation I would have done the same thing. Yes officer no officer have a good day and thank you officer.
It's always good to hear positive stories,cause lord knows we hear enough of the negative!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
[/quote]

He had NO SUCH RIGHT. He had rule of and unconstitutional law ruled constitutional by a fraud. PERIOD.

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='sventvkg' timestamp='1354844796' post='856177']
This INFURIATES ME. What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED in the 2nd amendment don't these Govt. gun grabbers not understand. I'm suck of it. Beyond sick of it...that form you have to fill out when getting your handgun permit in this state is nothing short of an abomination of the very fundamentals of the 2nd amendment and what our founders outlined as our GOD GIVEN RIGHTS that can't be infringed by Govt. My definition of what we live under is Tyranny.[/quote]
[quote name='sventvkg' timestamp='1354844851' post='856180']
He had NO SUCH RIGHT. He had rule of and unconstitutional law ruled constitutional by a fraud. PERIOD.[/quote]

Go get 'em, Spartacus!

Btw, I assume you put your money where your mouth is -- NRA and TFA member, for example?

- OS

[JayC]

[quote name='EB-SF' timestamp='1354842162' post='856147']
It's all about being able to define "reasonable fear" in court. I can sit on the stand and produce 100s of cases where LEOs were shot and killed. I can testify that I had a reasonable fear that that gun COULD kill me. No court in the land will disagree with how "I" perceived the situation.
[/quote]

Well it's not reasonable fear that the law requires... it requires a reasonable belief that disarming is necessary to protect the officer, or other individuals.

I contend that an officer can not have a reasonable belief that disarming is necessary for all permit holders. That if they hold such a belief it is no longer reasonable and therefore the disarming is no longer lawful.

Clearly if a department has a policy that all permit holders will be disarmed, that doesn't pass the smell test for a reasonable belief under 39-17-1351t.

If there was a criminal penalty for violating 39-17-1351t, would one be able to charge and convict this park ranger, very unlikely... But it sure would be nice to have some balance to this bad law, in case an officer does go overboard and clearly violates this law. Or even better yet, remove the disarm part unless their is an arrest altogether.

If an officer is fearful of a permit holder who hands them a permit without being asked during a traffic stop, maybe they shouldn't be on patrol anymore...

Permit holders just don't pose a serious risk to officer safety.... TN Permit holders are convicted of felony's at about the lowest rate of any group out there... lower than police officers, lower than members of the military, lower than the population as a whole.

I'm not saying there is never a need to disarm, that there can never be a reasonable belief... but clearly this law is abused today a lot, and if the choice is between continued abuse, or prohibiting officers from disarming altogether, then I'd side with doing away with the law altogether.

[NRA]

[quote name='sventvkg' timestamp='1354844851' post='856180']
He had NO SUCH RIGHT. He had rule of and unconstitutional law ruled constitutional by a fraud. PERIOD.
[/quote]

SAY WHAT?

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='JayC' timestamp='1354841449' post='856140']
Just another question to the OP, was this a federal park ranger? Or a state ranger? I'd be curious if they are somehow cross certified as TN law enforcement officers, because if they aren't (federal park rangers), then they would appear not to be covered by 39-17-1351t.
[/quote]
He identified himself as being with the national park service, I'm guessing that's federal.

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='jeepbus' timestamp='1354844715' post='856175']
The officer had every right ,and he was a complete professional ,with that said. If I were in the same situation I would have done the same thing. Yes officer no officer have a good day and thank you officer.
It's always good to hear positive stories,cause lord knows we hear enough of the negative!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
[/quote]
This is why I shared with the group. I didn't think it would be such a hot button topic. Edited December 7, 2012 by tennessee01tacoma

[gregintenn]

Had the OP told the LEO "No" when asked if he had a firearm, would the LEO have dragged him out of the car and frisked him, or would he likely have gone on about his business? Since the OP was honest about it, I wouldn't expect him to be much of a threat. You all can cheerlead for law enforcment all you want, but I see this as nothing but intimidation.

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='gregintenn' timestamp='1354847394' post='856218']
Had the OP told the LEO "No" when asked if he had a firearm, would the LEO have dragged him out of the car and frisked him, or would he likely have gone on about his business? Since the OP was honest about it, I wouldn't expect him to be much of a threat. You all can cheerlead for law enforcment all you want, but I see this as nothing but intimidation.
[/quote]
My train of thought if I say no and he finds out then he's gonna be pissed and make life hell on me. If I'm honest and he gives me a hard time then he's an a**hole and I'll get my revenge by calling his supervisors.

[JayC]

[quote name='tennessee01tacoma' timestamp='1354846809' post='856208']
He identified himself as being with the national park service, I'm guessing that's federal.
[/quote]

Yeah, I'm curious if he's also sworn as a deputy in TN, if not it would appear he may have violated the law by disarming you, since 39-17-1351t only covers state, county and local police officers.

Not that it really matters, just pointing the apparent issue with the disarming...

I'm not sure I would personally classify this as a positive encounter, but then again I've never been pulled over and disarmed.

[mav]

I have no animus towards LEOs, but I think this incident and some of the reasons defending such action are a pant load. Does anyone have any statistics on murders of LEOs at a traffic stop where the perpetrator had shown the officer their HCP and told the officer they had a gun? I have never seen any, but I would imagine if they existed it would be incredibly low if not next to nothing.

Using the argument that people flip out at anytime doesn't wash either. At the end of the encounter, the officer hands the weapon and mag back to the owner. Maybe the owner is pissed they just got a speeding ticket and flip out once they get their handgun back. How long does it take to pop in a mag, rack the slide, and go to work? Not very long. So even though they were entirely up front about being armed, they were a threat initially, but are no longer? That really does't jive with me.

I wouldn't get really upset over this incident, but I also wouldn't kiss the officer's butt because he was polite and couteous. I have absolutely no law enforcement experience, but in my mind the officer responding to the driver like, "Thank you for having your permit ready and telling me you armed. For everyone's safety, I would like you to keep you hands visible on the steering wheel while we are talking." would have been much more professional.

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='JayC' timestamp='1354847997' post='856227']


Yeah, I'm curious if he's also sworn as a deputy in TN, if not it would appear he may have violated the law by disarming you, since 39-17-1351t only covers state, county and local police officers.

Not that it really matters, just pointing the apparent issue with the disarming...

I'm not sure I would personally classify this as a positive encounter, but then again I've never been pulled over and disarmed.
[/quote]
From some stories I've read it could have been way worse, I'm an optimist so in my eyes I'll say it was positive.

[gregintenn]

Phil Valentine said it elloquently yesterday. He asked if guns are bad, why do we give police officers guns?

I just can't wrap my head around the theory that anyone with a gun can suddenly go crazy and start shooting people; anybody, that is, but an LEO.

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='JayC' timestamp='1354847997' post='856227']


Yeah, I'm curious if he's also sworn as a deputy in TN, if not it would appear he may have violated the law by disarming you, since 39-17-1351t only covers state, county and local police officers.

Not that it really matters, just pointing the apparent issue with the disarming...

I'm not sure I would personally classify this as a positive encounter, but then again I've never been pulled over and disarmed.
[/quote]
From some stories I've read it could have been way worse, I'm an optimist so in my eyes I'll say it was positive.

[jwinter]

It's interesting that he felt safer by disarming you but not by watching the others in the car as he did this. That seems more unsafe than just telling you to keep your hands where he can see them and dealing with the driver. It seems that he should have called for assistance if he felt threatened so one guy/gal could have watched the other occupants while he removed your gun. Also, when he gave the gun back to you, now you have a gun and a magazine out and in your hand instead of in your holster, in a sitting position. That seems really unsafe for him if you were a crazy person because I have seen how fast some people can load a mag and rack a pistol at the local club matches.

[Pain103]

The joy of Monday morning quarterbacks.

[Will H]

You know I look at some of these posts and I wonder if we are not seeing a clash of cultures in some cases. I may only be 37, but I am much more of the old school thought that says a legally armed civilian is not a threat, and is a pretty normal thing. There was a time that the fact you were legally armed was not a big deal, and not something that would concern most LEOs.

Now we live in a different world now. We have police departments being trained by Special Forces Operators, and trading their shotguns for M4s. I recently asked a LEO that works at our LGS if they were concerned about over penetration with those things and he looked at me like I was speaking Latin or something. The world has changed, and imho we need to change with it. Police are now trained that ALL weapons are a threat. That's not their fault. It's just the way they are trained. Any of us that have severed know that there is a VERY big difference between LEO training and combat training. That difference is starting to become blurred.

We had a sobriety check point here recently, and I was approached by a LEO. The very first thing that I did was inform. The sudden look of fear on his face made me feel sorry for him. He had been casual in his approach, but as soon as the words were out of my mouth his hand fell to his sidearm. In response to this I simply said "I am legally armed and of no threat to you or anyone else sir." He did not act on his fear, just told me to move along. It was not a lack of courage on his part, just a result of training.

I think that as our society has moved toward a belief that guns are the problem and not people, and so have the police in some fashion. I think that it is important to remember that 90% of LEOs are on our side and we should cut them some slack.

All that said, this is only my opinion and means nothing. Edited December 7, 2012 by Will H

[daddyo]

[quote name='Pain103' timestamp='1354873944' post='856332']
The joy of Monday morning quarterbacks.
[/quote]

Then, as an LEO, please explain how someone who is armed and has a valid carry permit who has given you NO indication that he intends to do you harm is a threat. Have you been trained to think that all citizens are suspicious unless proven otherwise?

[Pain103]

You and many people jump to assumptions about this situation. None of us where there except the OP and none of us know what the circumstances where in this interaction at all that is a fact. The Monday morning quarterback comment is for people who want to tell others how do their job after the fact. If you can do it better then get hired and do it. Just having a HCP doesn't make you a saint or even a good person believe me I've seen some people who should be in prison and gang members with a HCP. While at the same time I've known several good people and even family members that are HCP holders. I even have one myself. If you are disarmed and don't believe there was a justification then complain. But don't jump to conclusions about someone else's situation unless you where there.

Now in my experience I have never disarmed a legally armed HCP holder. I give them credit due to my experience and interactions with the many I have encoutered. I don't want to disarm them just like I wouldn't want to be disarmed. But if in a situation I have articulable facts to explain I may have been in reasonable fear to disarm the person during our encounter it will be done. Hopefully that never has to happen but if it does I will do what I am legally allowed to do to ensure the safety of myself and the other person and conduct the business at hand. Now I don't assume automatically HCP holders are threats due to that fact alone they are treated like anyone else I encounter and will continue to do so unless they make the situation change. Edited December 7, 2012 by Pain103

[DaveTN]

[quote name='mav' timestamp='1354848092' post='856230']
I have no animus towards LEOs, but I think this incident and some of the reasons defending such action are a pant load. Does anyone have any statistics on murders of LEOs at a traffic stop where the perpetrator had shown the officer their HCP and told the officer they had a gun? I have never seen any, but I would imagine if they existed it would be incredibly low if not next to nothing.

Using the argument that people flip out at anytime doesn't wash either. At the end of the encounter, the officer hands the weapon and mag back to the owner. Maybe the owner is pissed they just got a speeding ticket and flip out once they get their handgun back. How long does it take to pop in a mag, rack the slide, and go to work? Not very long. So even though they were entirely up front about being armed, they were a threat initially, but are no longer? That really does't jive with me.

I wouldn't get really upset over this incident, but I also wouldn't kiss the officer's butt because he was polite and couteous. I have absolutely no law enforcement experience, but in my mind the officer responding to the driver like, "Thank you for having your permit ready and telling me you armed. For everyone's safety, I would like you to keep you hands visible on the steering wheel while we are talking." would have been much more professional.
[/quote]
You would have to talk to the Officer to find out why he disarmed the OP, could be many things. But you are trained to stay alive. You are trained to act on what you see. Does the cop disarm everyone, or did he see something that caused that reaction? We don’t know, but the OP says he acted professionally and he wasn’t upset about it.

To say people don’t shoot cops on traffic stops is ridiculous. To say the fact that you bought your privilege from the state makes it some kind of right that makes you less of a threat to a Police Officer is even ,more ridiculous.

I’m not going to post the links because I don’t want to validate them, but search Google. Florida has a link that lists people that were killed in their state by permit holders. There is a “Study” that claims through news articles they found 7 Police Officers and 41 civilians killed by permit holders. You can find it yourself and see if it is creditable. I can’t find the story now, but it hasn’t been that long ago a cop had a permit holder on a traffic stop. After talking to him, he determined the guy might be drunk and tried to disarm him. They got in a struggle over the gun and the suspect shot him. He then stood over him and finished him off. Had he disarmed him when he first saw the gun, he might be alive today… who knows.

We don’t have to make up stories or even look hard to find cases where permit holders shot cops, innocent citizens and even family members.

It’s easy to ask for statistics on something you know doesn’t exist. Of course there aren’t statistics on permit holders that shoot cops. When you murder a cop or anyone else, no one generally cares if you had a permit or not. I really don’t want anyone adding that to a reporting form either. I don’t want to see it abused by the press the way it would be. I don’t pretend to be living at the foot of the cross and having a permit doesn’t make it so.

Thank God our founding Fathers never intended anything in the Constitution to get a cop doing his job killed. If Jefferson or Franklin were out here dealing with what our cops deal with, they would be disarming people when they saw the need also.

[daddyo]

[quote name='Pain103' timestamp='1354883334' post='856357']
You and many people jump to assumptions about this situation. None of us where there except the OP and none of us know what the circumstances where in this interaction at all that is a fact. The Monday morning quarterback comment is for people who want to tell others how do their job after the fact. If you can do it better then get hired and do it. Just having a HCP doesn't make you a saint or even a good person believe me I've seen some people who should be in prison and gang members with a HCP. While at the same time I've known several good people and even family members that are HCP holders. I even have one myself. If you are disarmed and don't believe there was a justification then complain. But don't jump to conclusions about someone else's situation unless you where there.

Now in my experience I have never disarmed a legally armed HCP holder. I give them credit due to my experience and interactions with the many I have encoutered. I don't want to disarm them just like I wouldn't want to be disarmed. But if in a situation I have articulable facts to explain I may have been in reasonable fear to disarm the person during our encounter it will be done. Hopefully that never has to happen but if it does I will do what I am legally allowed to do to ensure the safety of myself and the other person and conduct the business at hand. Now I don't assume automatically HCP holders are threats due to that fact alone they are treated like anyone else I encounter and will continue to do so unless they make the situation change.
[/quote]

Thanks for the explanation.

[mav]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354883999' post='856361']
To say people don’t shoot cops on traffic stops is ridiculous. To say the fact that you bought your privilege from the state makes it some kind of right that makes you less of a threat to a Police Officer is even ,more ridiculous.
[/quote]

Dave, you need to work on your reading comprehension. I stated neither of those, so don't put words in my mouth. I did ask how many officers had been killed in a traffic stop [u]where the person being questioned showed the officer they had a HCP and informed the officer that they were armed.[/u] That is a very specific question, and as I stated earlier, I would imagine the numbers would be next to nothing.

To address those that are claiming this is Monday morning quaterbacking, yes it is. I agree that none of us were present at this incident, and we do not know why the officer did what he did. However, the entire discusssion is based on what was written in the OP. Based on what was written, I believe it could have been handled differently. That said, I don't get really worked up over this incident either, as I stated earlier in my post.

[GlockSpock]

[quote]When you murder a cop or anyone else, no one generally cares if you had a permit or not.[/quote]

I've always seen quite the opposite. It seems that if a suspect holds a HCP, the media is more than happy to report this. Suspect shot cop, HE HAD A CARRY PERMIT. Suspect kills family and then self, HE HAD A CARRY PERMIT. Suspect ran stop sign and then made an illegal turn, HE HAD A CARRY PERMIT.

[daddyo]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354883999' post='856361']
It’s easy to ask for statistics on something you know doesn’t exist. Of course there aren’t statistics on permit holders that shoot cops. When you murder a cop or anyone else, [b]no one generally cares if you had a permit or not[/b]. I really don’t want anyone adding that to a reporting form either. I don’t want to see it abused by the press the way it would be. I don’t pretend to be living at the foot of the cross and having a permit doesn’t make it so.[/quote]

Not true. The media is quick to point out if someone who committed a crime with a gun has a permit.

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354883999' post='856361']
If Jefferson or Franklin were out here dealing with what our cops deal with, they would be disarming people when they saw the need also.
[/quote]

There's really no way for you to know this. Edited December 7, 2012 by DaddyO

[jwinter]

"The joy of Monday morning quarterbacks." Umm...... It's Friday morning. You didn't make detective did you? Just kidding, I know the cliche.

If the comment was directed at me, I will say that I wasn't telling him how to do his job, just pointing out that that seemed unsafe to me. If that offended you I am sorry, but you should not "jump to conclusions" as you say. As for the OP, I would not have a problem with what the guy did if he was professional about it like the OP stated. I don't mind helping someone out.

With that in mind, I don't think that it is right that cops ride alone, especially at night. I assume this is because of budget constraints but it just seems wrong. A cop has too much going on in front of him in a stop to be aware of everything that is going on or that what could happen.

[mav]

[quote name='jwinter' timestamp='1354889936' post='856402']
If the comment was directed at me
[/quote]

It wasn't, and I should have used different wording. I just used it in my post to state the obvious; we are all Monday morning quaterbacking since none of us were there.

I don't believe a lot of what I read on this forum and elsewhere. A lot of the time, you do not get the whole story. When I comment on some of these threads, I treat them as an exercise in the hypothetical. I assume the OP is telling me the whole story, and I base my comments on what was written. It is all in good fun. If I viewed these stories like I do everything in real life, the only thing I would ever be able to say is, "I can't comment since I don't know if I have all the facts."