Disarmed in a traffic stop

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='sschrick' timestamp='1354806463' post='855847']
just curious to the OP, I know you were ready to present the officer your HCP, but you have no obligation to do so unless he asks for it.

just wondering on your beliefs/thoughts regarding why you had it ready to present to him. . .
[/quote]I know I volunteered information that I wasn't legally obligated to share. I wasn't driving so as soon as the car came to a stop I retrieved my wallet which is right beside my pistol and got my dl and hcp out so I wouldn't have to make that movement while the officer was standing there. I have heard about all the responses by officers ranging from keep your holstered and I'll keep mine holstered, to situations similar to mine or worse. I had nothing to hide and I believe that an officer should know I'm carrying responsibly(not just that I have a "weapon"). He did have an o #### look on his face when I told him. If he hadn't asked I may not have told him, but the first words out of my wife's mouth when the blue lights came on was you have your pistol don't you. She was nervous, she wasn't raised around guns like I have been and her dad never carried a pistol so this is all new to her. Believe me if he was rude to me or unprofessional about the situation I would be calling to find out who his supervisor is and try to get him reprimanded. I just honestly try to represent myself as an extension of the hcp world the best I can. I believe in honesty and last night it paid off.

[Guest RevScottie]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354803992' post='855826']

The other issue I have with that is safety. I don't like handing a person a loaded weapon. I further don't want someone handling MY loaded weapon and unloading it if they have no idea how it works. This is how accidents happen.
[/quote]

I would feel very uncomfortable with someone removing my pistol from its holster and for pocket carry it would be very difficult. I'm just not comfortable with someone elses trigger discipline (or lack of discipline) trying to remove the firearm while still on my person.

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354810716' post='855880']


I would feel very uncomfortable with someone removing my pistol from its holster and for pocket carry it would be very difficult. I'm just not comfortable with someone elses trigger discipline (or lack of discipline) trying to remove the firearm while still on my person.
[/quote]One reason I like my Sig the double action triggerpull is weighted that you have to conciously squeeze it to make it go off I have little worries about removing or replacing it from my holster. I practice drawing and making that first shot. It's not for everyone I admit but I like it.

[Mike.357]

why'd ya get out your drivers license if you weren't driving?

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='Mike.357' timestamp='1354813936' post='855896']
why'd ya get out your drivers license if you weren't driving?
[/quote]I don't know it stays right next to my hcp I just grabbed them both. The funny thing is the officer didn't look at either one.

[Fivestring63]

I at least hope you weren't carrying a Raven 25 or some such and got embarrassed. LOL

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='fivestring63' timestamp='1354814682' post='855904']
I at least hope you weren't carrying a Raven 25 or some such and got embarrassed. LOL
[/quote]I wouldn't be caught dead carrying a raven or hi point or other cheap crap to defend myself and my wife. I carry a Sig sp2022 9mm it was the best gun I could actually afford.

[daddyo]

Said it before and I'll say it again - LEOs disarming citizens who have given them no reason to think they are murderers just so they can "feel safe" is not about safety at all... it's about power and control.

[Guest 270win]

The law here seems to allow this. I'm sure even if the law didn't allow this, an officer could still disarm someone due to the Terry stop rules if i am not mistaken. They could disarm one off duty i'm sure if they really wanted to until LEO status is verified.

[c.a.willard]

[quote name='JayC' timestamp='1354805850' post='855841']
But this just isn't happening... You could pull somebody over and an 8 foot tall bigfoot covered in hair could jump out of the trunk and kill you... which is about as likely to happen as a valid permit holder is to shoot an officer during a traffic stop.

The big problem here is, we don't know how often officers are disarming law abiding citizens, and nothing happens... There are no penalties if the officer breaks the disarming law, which appears to be happening on a regular basis. At the very least an officer unlawfully disarming a permit holder should be a criminal offense. It would be nice to require that every disarming be documented under the penalty of perjury stating the reason the permit holder was disarmed.

Clearly a SOP (standard operating procedure) to disarm all permit holders during traffic stops would not be lawful under current state law, yet it appears that some officers and possibly some departments have such a policy.

But, lets pretend there is such a rash of officer safety concerns that some permit holders need to be disarmed... why on earth do the serial numbers of their firearms need to be ran? This is [u]creating a computerized gun database[/u], and we should have laws (with criminal sanctions) preventing officers from running serial numbers on firearms unless that have probable cause the firearm in question is stolen.
[/quote]

On December 3, 2009, Bart Johnson shot and killed Pelham, Alabama,
police officer Philip Davis during a routine traffic stop. Officer Davis had stopped
Johnson for speeding. According to videotape from the officer’s patrol car, Davis and
Johnson spoke briefly, and Davis then went to write Johnson a ticket. Upon his return,
Johnson told Davis that his brother was a police officer. Officer Davis replied, “Why
didn’t you tell me that before? Let me have his name and number so I can tell him what
happened.” Then, “unprovoked and without a word, Johnson fired one shot, striking
Davis in the face.” Johnson fled the scene, abandoned his Acura, and attempted to break
into another vehicle. When he was noticed by someone, Johnson displayed his gun and
waved the person away. He was later picked up by his brother and surrendered to
authorities. A local pharmacist, Johnson obtained a concealed weapons permit in 2007


It does happen although rare. HCP holders are people too and are subject to being irrational and violent at times. There is no way for the officer to know how you may react to the situation so he chooses the safest alternative for him/her and disarms the HCP holder.

I do disagree with running serial numbers on a weapon not suspected as being part of a crime, however there is no indication in the OP's post that this was the case.

As i said before HCP holders attacking LE is rare, but please sight an example of an 8 foot bigfoot jumping out of a trunk and attacking someone.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1354816699' post='855914']
Said it before and I'll say it again - LEOs disarming citizens who have given them no reason to think they are murderers just so they can "feel safe" is not about safety at all... it's about power and control.
[/quote]Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

[daddyo]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354819886' post='855959']
Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
[/quote]

Denying it doesn't make it false.

[Oh Shoot]

Well, one thing in a LEO's stead: until he runs your DL, he has no way to be sure your permit is even valid. You could have had it nuked, maybe even be a fugitive from justice or something.

Yeah, any number of scenarios are very rare possibilities, but two seconds to fire a round is a pretty thin line during one of the most dangerous activities a cop will do in the first place.

- OS

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1354820070' post='855960']
Denying it doesn't make it false.[/quote]

Anybody can assert anything they want but unfounded assertions on the internet aren't worth the electrons it takes to make them.

But hey; you are entitled to your opinion...I would suggest, however, that if at some point in the future you need help because thugs are beating you up or trying to break into your home, don't bother to call for a cop since all they care about is "power and control" and have no desire to actually help people.

Edited December 6, 2012 by RobertNashville

[daddyo]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354820683' post='855971']


Anybody can assert anything they want but unfounded assertions on the internet aren't worth the electrons it takes to make them.

But hey; you are entitled to your opinion...I would suggest, however, that if at some point in the future you need help because thugs are beating you up or trying to break into your home, don't bother to call for a cop since all they care about is "power and control" and have no desire to actually help people.
[/quote]

Now, Robert, you're being silly as usual. I didn't say that all cops care about is power and control. I was referring only to the ones who like asserting their power over the peasantry for no good reason. And don't worry about my safety if someone wants to attack me or break into my home.... I'm responsible for my safety; not the police. They won't be there in time to help me anyway.

[Guest brighac]

[quote name='Dolomite_supafly' timestamp='1354802046' post='855808']
People loose their minds all the time. Just because someone has a HCP doesn't mean they won't flip out and do something rash. We have read about it dozens of times on here where a HCP holder does something stupid. And as an officer if they can do something to prevent injuries to anyone it is a good thing.

Think about it. A HCP holder flips out and pulls his gun on the officer. The officer responds and kills the HCP holder. Who won? No one because one man lost his life and another has to live with taking that life for the rest of his life. The families of both will suffer for the rest of their lives. The officer and department will get sued. Especially if the officer knew and did not disarm the HCP holder.

I know it would weigh heavily on me if I did not do everything in my power to prevent conflict.

Dolomite
[/quote]

Just like the idiot that shot at a woman just because she was going slow in knoxville over a present on black friday... unfortunately there are some crazies out there...

[Wheelgunner]

Law enforcement officers have the legal authority to disarm a HCP holder during a traffic stop. Got it. Here's what I don't understand: if an officer thinks the lawfully armed citizen is enough of a threat to prefer disarming him, why doesn't the officer actually treat him like a threat? (call for back up, take cover, weapon drawn and aimed at center of mass, short verbal commands clearly shouted, etc)

If I were in the officer's shoes and were concerned about somebody shooting me, I can't imagine climbing into a stranger's car by myself to grab the handgun off his hip. I guess I'm just not that brave. Edited December 6, 2012 by Wheelgunner

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='Wheelgunner' timestamp='1354835059' post='856081']
Law enforcement officers have the legal authority to disarm a HCP holder during a traffic stop. Got it. Here's what I don't understand: if an officer thinks the lawfully armed citizen is enough of a threat to prefer disarming him, why doesn't the officer actually treat him like a threat? (call for back up, take cover, weapon drawn and aimed at center of mass, short verbal commands clearly shouted, etc)

If I were in the officer's shoes and were concerned about somebody shooting me, I can't imagine climbing into a stranger's car by myself to grab the handgun off his hip. I guess I'm just not that brave.
[/quote]Sorry I didn't make it clear earlier he made me step out of the car with my arms stretched outward. While he retrieved my handgun
Edited December 6, 2012 by tennessee01tacoma

[CQB Elite]

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354770238' post='855606']
Sounds like he was professinal. That said, he has no reason, nor right to disarm anyone who is in legal possession of a handgun with an HCP. If he conducted a search due to probable cause, and you didn't have an HCP then yes. He is a public servant, not an overlord or sheepdog. Sorry for the rant, it just gets on my nerves that any police officer thinks hes safer by disarming the man who openly discloses that he has a weapon and an hcp. The guy whos gonna shoot him at a trarfic stop isn't gonna tell him he has the gun beforehand.
[/quote]

From reading this post I can tell two things:

1) You've never been the police
2) You know far less about the laws and our legal system than you think you do

[JayC]

[quote name='Dolomite_supafly' timestamp='1354807132' post='855852']
Please point me to the disarming law you are talking about.

Also, every single person in the state who has a firearm on them, HCP or not, is breaking the law.

Dolomite
[/quote]

TCA 39-17-1351t

[quote][color=#333333][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when [b]the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals.[/b] The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

While it is true we're violating the law even with a permit [u](which is another topic that we should be pushing for a single word change in the TCA from defense to exception[/u]), this law drastically limits the ability for the officer to disarm a permit holder, compared to a non-permit holder found with a loaded firearm.

So, explain to me how an officer reasonably believes it is necessary to disarm every permit holder they come across? Unless the officer has that reasonable belief every time they disarm a permit holder, they are acting unlawfully.

I contend that departments who have a policy to always disarm permit holders are acting unlawfully, and most likely officers who disarm all permit holders are likely acting unlawfully as well. But, you'll notice there is no criminal penalty for violating 39-17-1351t, which is part of the problem.

Just another question to the OP, was this a federal park ranger? Or a state ranger? I'd be curious if they are somehow cross certified as TN law enforcement officers, because if they aren't (federal park rangers), then they would appear not to be covered by 39-17-1351t. Edited December 7, 2012 by JayC

[CQB Elite]

[quote name='Wheelgunner' timestamp='1354835059' post='856081']
Law enforcement officers have the legal authority to disarm a HCP holder during a traffic stop. Got it. Here's what I don't understand: if an officer thinks the lawfully armed citizen is enough of a threat to prefer disarming him, why doesn't the officer actually treat him like a threat? (call for back up, take cover, weapon drawn and aimed at center of mass, short verbal commands clearly shouted, etc)

If I were in the officer's shoes and were concerned about somebody shooting me, I can't imagine climbing into a stranger's car by myself to grab the handgun off his hip. I guess I'm just not that brave.
[/quote]

Yea! And the officer should fire 3 or 4 warning shots to let the permit holder know he means business....... (this bit of sarcasm was provided and no charge).

Keeping the situation calm is important. No sense in ramping up tensions by calling in reinforcements or pointing your weapon at someone.

[Fivestring63]

You guys complaining about him being disarmed, I've been pulled over twice and never was disarmed.

[CQB Elite]

[quote name='JayC' timestamp='1354841449' post='856140']


TCA 39-17-1351t



While it is true we're violating the law even with a permit [u](which is another topic that we should be pushing for a single word change in the TCA from defense to exception[/u]), this law drastically limits the ability for the officer to disarm a permit holder, compared to a non-permit holder found with a loaded firearm.

So, explain to me how an officer reasonably believes it is necessary to disarm every permit holder they come across? Unless the officer has that reasonable belief every time they disarm a permit holder, they are acting unlawfully.

I contend that departments who have a policy to always disarm permit holders are acting unlawfully, and most likely officers who disarm all permit holders are likely acting unlawfully as well. But, you'll notice there is no criminal penalty for violating 39-17-1351t, which is part of the problem.

Just another question to the OP, was this a federal park ranger? Or a state ranger? I'd be curious if they are somehow cross certified as TN law enforcement officers, because if they aren't (federal park rangers), then they would appear not to be covered by 39-17-1351t.
[/quote]

It's all about being able to define "reasonable fear" in court. I can sit on the stand and produce 100s of cases where LEOs were shot and killed. I can testify that I had a reasonable fear that that gun COULD kill me. No court in the land will disagree with how "I" perceived the situation.

[jeepbus]

The officer had every right ,and he was a complete professional ,with that said. If I were in the same situation I would have done the same thing. Yes officer no officer have a good day and thank you officer.
It's always good to hear positive stories,cause lord knows we hear enough of the negative!


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[Guest sventvkg]

This INFURIATES ME. What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED in the 2nd amendment don't these Govt. gun grabbers not understand. I'm suck of it. Beyond sick of it...that form you have to fill out when getting your handgun permit in this state is nothing short of an abomination of the very fundamentals of the 2nd amendment and what our founders outlined as our GOD GIVEN RIGHTS that can't be infringed by Govt. My definition of what we live under is Tyranny.