Disarmed in a traffic stop

[jwinter]

I was actually commenting on the one right after my last post. I do agree with you, that is what we do on these forums. We discuss things. And yes, we don't know the whole story most of the time, and to assume anything either way is not prudent.

It is hard to tell what someone's tone on these forums is just by reading the text. I know I am pretty bad about that very thing sometimes, so I try to wait to respond to other peoples posts. I would wager that if we were all sitting in a room this would be a pretty light hearted discussion (maybe not). Edited December 7, 2012 by jwinter

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1354888049' post='856381']
Not true. The media is quick to point out if someone who committed a crime with a gun has a permit.[/quote]
So you know the stats? Do you have real sources or just media stories?

Can you tell us how many cases of a permit holder inappropriately shooting someone, or more specifically, a LEO at a traffic stop there has been in the U.S. in the past month? In the past year? In the past two years? In the past ten years?

"Stories" that appear in news sources and/or on websites are [i][b]not[/b][/i] statistics; they're just stories....stories that may be factual or not...may be complete or not...stories that once read are probably not even remembered correctly after a short amount of time.

I don't often back up DaveTN ; but I don't know of any competent or easily accessed statistics on such issues - if you know of any, I think many of us here would appreciate knowing what they are/where to find them.

Edited December 7, 2012 by RobertNashville

[daddyo]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354896578' post='856464']
So you know the stats? Do you have real sources or just media stories?

Can you tell us how many cases of a permit holder inappropriately shooting someone, or more specifically, a LEO at a traffic stop there has been in the U.S. in the past month? In the past year? In the past two years? In the past ten years?

"Stories" that appear in news sources and/or on websites are [i][b]not[/b][/i] statistics; they're just stories....stories that may be factual or not...may be complete or not...stories that once read are probably not even remembered correctly after a short amount of time.

I don't often back up DaveTN ; but I don't know of any competent or easily accessed statistics on such issues - if you know of any, I think many of us here would appreciate knowing what they are/where to find them.
[/quote]

I think you need to go back and read my post again in reference to what Dave was saying about no one caring whether or not someone who committed murder with a gun has a permit or not. Your post above has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Read and comprehend, and stop reacting emotionally. You'll be much happier.

Edited December 7, 2012 by DaddyO

[RobertNashville]

You said "[b][i]Not true. The media is quick to point out if someone who committed a crime with a gun has a permit[/i][/b]"

I'm asking if you have stats rather than vague references to "media stories"...apparently you don't.

Thanks for your concern for my happiness but it's unnecessary.

[daddyo]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354897427' post='856481']
You said "[b][i]Not true. The media is quick to point out if someone who committed a crime with a gun has a permit[/i][/b]"

I'm asking if you have stats rather than vague references to "media stories"...apparently you don't.

Thanks for your concern for my happiness but it's unnecessary.
[/quote]

Sorry, man, but I really don't get what you're trying to say. I find it hard to believe that you haven't read one of the many stories or heard any of the many news reports on TV where it was stated that the person charged with a crime had a permit. Maybe you're just not paying attention.

Have a nice day. Edited December 7, 2012 by DaddyO

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1354899454' post='856506']
Sorry, man, but I really don't get what you're trying to say. I find it hard to believe that you haven't read one of the many stories or heard any of the many news reports on TV where it was stated that the person charged with a crime had a permit. Maybe you're just not paying attention.

Have a nice day.[/quote]

Sure I've read stories and stories are pretty much like assholes.

Statistics are facts derived form large, scientifically conducted studies using mathematical tools and principles.

Stories can make good fodder for internet forums I suppose but they make a lousy basis for substantive discussion. Edited December 7, 2012 by RobertNashville

[daddyo]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354900025' post='856512']
Sure I've read stories and stories are pretty much like assholes.

Statistics are facts derived form large, scientifically conducted studies using mathematical tools and principles.

Stories can make good fodder for internet forums I suppose but they make a lousy basis for substantive discussion.
[/quote]

Robert, please try and follow me on this - I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about what I have heard with my own ears and read with my own eyes. The media has a bias against those of us with permits and takes every opportunity to paint us in a bad light. So, when they find out that someone committed a crime with a handgun and that person had a valid permit, they make it a point to tell their viewers that, contrary to the conclusion earlier that no one cares whether someone who commits a crime has a permit or not.

Other than that, I'm not really sure how I can make it any plainer. You and I are obviously talking about two completely unrelated things. Edited December 7, 2012 by DaddyO

[Patton]

I'm not reading over this entire post but if it's a legal stop with probable cause or even reasonable suspicion that a crime or violation has occurred The LEO has every right to disarm you for the duration of the traffic stop at least in TN. PERIOD!

[daddyo]

PERIOD!

Well, I guess that settles the matter then!

[Tempest455]

Just got stopped 2 weeks ago. My .45 was on the seat next to me in a gym bag. I handed my DL and permit. He asked if I had any weapon in the car and I said yes next to me in the bag. He thanked me for telling him and I aksed I place hands on the wheel when I saw him coming back to the car. I did and we talked a bit about the amount of miles per year I drive. He never asked to see it or any other questions about it. He thanked me again for cooperating and said it was a pleasure meeting. He was a very nice guy, however, I still got a ticket. 

[Patton]

I think the matter is not that the LEO thinks A legally armed citizen will open fire but the fact we get so criticized by our command when we do things certain ways we get "Monday morning qtrbacked". You was told there was a weapon in the car but didn't take it? I can't count the number of times a citizen called, emailed, or spoke to a chief or LT trying to commend a LEO and it backfired on the officer.

[Q-tip]

Doesn't the law require a "reasonable" fear that the permit holder is a danger to himself or the officer in order to disarm? Mere possession and otherwise cooperation by no means inducers of a "reasonable" fear. This should be held to the same standard as RAS before an officer can disarm, rather than just at a whim, if we're going by what the law says. 

Edited December 11, 2012 by Q-tip

[Guest Mad4rcn]

You guys complaining about him being disarmed, I've been pulled over twice and never was disarmed.

 

Same here,the local sheriffs dept,and state trooper.

Very polite ,no tickets.

[CQB Elite]

In the first few days of my police academy we watched a video containing dash-cam footage of the murder of a Texas DPS officer. Some of you may have seen the same footage. The veteran officer stopped a car occupied by 3 illegals. He decided to have them stand on the shoulder of the road while he searched their car. They jumped him and they all ended up falling in a ditch. They took his weapon away from and shot him dead. I believe most would agree that he made a tragic tactical error.

Now I will admit that a HCP holder MAY be the last person that will pull a gun and shoot an officer, but I ain't 100% sure. There are a lot of factors that go into the decision to disarm. Training, experience, location, time of day, proximity of backup officers, actions or lack of by the HCP, etc. I'm well trained and very comfortable with a wide variety of firearms. I feel far safer with them in my possession than in someone else's.

It only takes one time making the wrong decision before you find yourself shot dead......in a ditch........

[daddyo]

In the first few days of my police academy we watched a video containing dash-cam footage of the murder of a Texas DPS officer. Some of you may have seen the same footage. The veteran officer stopped a car occupied by 3 illegals. He decided to have them stand on the shoulder of the road while he searched their car. They jumped him and they all ended up falling in a ditch. They took his weapon away from and shot him dead. I believe most would agree that he made a tragic tactical error.

Now I will admit that a HCP holder MAY be the last person that will pull a gun and shoot an officer, but I ain't 100% sure. There are a lot of factors that go into the decision to disarm. Training, experience, location, time of day, proximity of backup officers, actions or lack of by the HCP, etc. I'm well trained and very comfortable with a wide variety of firearms. I feel far safer with them in my possession than in someone else's.

It only takes one time making the wrong decision before you find yourself shot dead......in a ditch........

Your personal fears are no justification for disarming someone who has shown no aggression towards you nor given you any reason to view him as a threat. The less a weapon is handled, the less chance of accident. Besides, my weapon is my personal property. If I am not committing a crime, you have no right ro confiscate it, not even for a few minutes.

[Patton]

Your personal fears are no justification for disarming someone who has shown no aggression towards you nor given you any reason to view him as a threat. The less a weapon is handled, the less chance of accident. Besides, my weapon is my personal property. If I am not committing a crime, you have no right ro confiscate it, not even for a few minutes.

TCA says otherwise.

[Hershmeister]

Dumbs question : what obligation do
You have in answering an officers question as to whether you have a gun in the car? Clearly lying is a bad idea as its illegal to lie to a LEO but can you simply refuse to answer? Granted this may be a poor choice but I'm just wondering what is the legal obligation to answer

[Patton]

You do not have to disclose to an officer that you are armed. You do not have to answer truthfully that you have a firearm on you but if you are found with one your wordeans nothing from that point. I don't believe a false statements to police Charge would stick. Edited December 12, 2012 by Patton

[RobertNashville]

You do not have to disclose to an officer that you are armed. You do not have to answer truthfully that you have a firearm on you but if you are found with one your wordeans nothing from that point. I don't believe a false statements to police Charge would stick.

Try that out for us and let us know will you. ;)

Edited December 12, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest bkelm18]

Your personal fears are no justification for disarming someone who has shown no aggression towards you nor given you any reason to view him as a threat. The less a weapon is handled, the less chance of accident. Besides, my weapon is my personal property. If I am not committing a crime, you have no right ro confiscate it, not even for a few minutes.

The officer has every right to confiscate your firearm. It's called the law. You should familiarize yourself with it sometime. Edited December 12, 2012 by bkelm18

[Guest sventvkg]

In the first few days of my police academy we watched a video containing dash-cam footage of the murder of a Texas DPS officer. Some of you may have seen the same footage. The veteran officer stopped a car occupied by 3 illegals. He decided to have them stand on the shoulder of the road while he searched their car. They jumped him and they all ended up falling in a ditch. They took his weapon away from and shot him dead. I believe most would agree that he made a tragic tactical error.

Now I will admit that a HCP holder MAY be the last person that will pull a gun and shoot an officer, but I ain't 100% sure. There are a lot of factors that go into the decision to disarm. Training, experience, location, time of day, proximity of backup officers, actions or lack of by the HCP, etc. I'm well trained and very comfortable with a wide variety of firearms. I feel far safer with them in my possession than in someone else's.

It only takes one time making the wrong decision before you find yourself shot dead......in a ditch........

 

I think the matter is not that the LEO thinks A legally armed citizen will open fire but the fact we get so criticized by our command when we do things certain ways we get "Monday morning qtrbacked". You was told there was a weapon in the car but didn't take it? I can't count the number of times a citizen called, emailed, or spoke to a chief or LT trying to commend a LEO and it backfired on the officer.

All you are doing is separating yourself further from law abiding citizens when everyone is guilty until proven innocent and it comes down from the FEDS who tell your superiors that Veterans and Liberty Minded Americans are Terrorists. They put fear into your hearts and your hands become heavier with us. There's already WIDESPREAD abuse and violation of our rights and when they instill enough fear in you and you hurt, or kill enough innocents it will all become a self fulfilling prophecy. Can you not see that? So, listen to your civil rights abusing Chief if you want and when you violate my rights I'm going to sue you personally as well as your department, city, county, or state..Whatever your jurisdiction. In 2012 I find many LEO's to be a bunch of heavy handed oath violating thugs. I'd think twice about this career if you're in this group because it's going to backfire on you eventually. 

Edited December 12, 2012 by sventvkg

[RobertNashville]

All you are doing is separating yourself further from law abiding citizens when everyone is guilty until proven innocent and it comes down from the FEDS who tell your superiors that Veterans and Liberty Minded Americans are Terrorists. They put fear into your hearts and your hands become heavier with us. There's already WIDESPREAD abuse and violation of our rights and when they instill enough fear in you and you hurt, or kill enough innocents it will all become a self fulfilling prophecy. Can you not see that? So, listen to your civil rights abusing Chief if you want and when you violate my rights I'm going to sue you personally as well as your department, city, county, or state..Whatever your jurisdiction. In 2012 I find many LEO's to be a bunch of heavy handed oath violating thugs. I'd think twice about this career if you're in this group because it's going to backfire on you eventually. 

Yuup...it's all part of a grand conspiracy.

 

I mean, it can't possibly have anything to do with a cop, alone, walking up to a vehicle with a person or person in it that he doesn't know at all and has no real idea if this person(s) is just a fellow driving a little fast or if he's just come from beating or killing his girlfriend or he's just be fired from his job and is looking for a way to vent his frustrations at life.

Just because a guy has an HCP is not a guarantee that won't be a problem or won't send an officer home at room temperature.

 

There are REAL issues of diminishing and vanishing personal liberty...but a LEO disarming a person at a traffic stop is not one of those issues; especially when it's handled politely and respectfully.

[chances R]

I think it is a given that we are surrounded by idiots........IF I was LEO, and until I think I know all I need to know about the people I have stopped, I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing.  I'll give LEO the benefit of doubt, traffic stops are initially high risk affairs, so I'll leave it to their judgement and proceed as directed.  All I ask for it respect and courtesy....both ways.

[Patton]

All you are doing is separating yourself further from law abiding citizens when everyone is guilty until proven innocent and it comes down from the FEDS who tell your superiors that Veterans and Liberty Minded Americans are Terrorists. They put fear into your hearts and your hands become heavier with us. There's already WIDESPREAD abuse and violation of our rights and when they instill enough fear in you and you hurt, or kill enough innocents it will all become a self fulfilling prophecy. Can you not see that? So, listen to your civil rights abusing Chief if you want and when you violate my rights I'm going to sue you personally as well as your department, city, county, or state..Whatever your jurisdiction. In 2012 I find many LEO's to be a bunch of heavy handed oath violating thugs. I'd think twice about this career if you're in this group because it's going to backfire on you eventually.

I thought just like you before I was exposed to reality. Sue me? Dude I get threatened with civil suits everyday. Don't believe everything you see or hear on TV. I have nothing in my name and that's assuming you could get past my huge arsenal of attorney friends that owe me favors.

I will have you know most officers do not disarm every armed HCP they come across, I can only remember asking a few people. It's not the guns that I know are there that I fear, it's the ones I don't know about. I treat every vehicle and person like there may be a firearm there. I really don't care if they tell me anyway. The ones I have disarmed are ones that have commited a crime and not necessarily a traffic infraction. I have disarmed two guys matching the description of shoplifters leaving a Walmart.(wasn't them). I have disarmed a guy after a domestic and of course a few reckless endangermets involving a firearm.

[Dustbuster]

Most rangers tend to get carried away.To me a hcp holder has passed a bg check and shouldn't have any past felonies.... The probability of an accidental discharge increases by 3rd party disarming.Were talking a traffic stop not a checkpoint roust in a hostile area. Geez.
I've heard sumner co le has been chastising hcp holders as well.bad bad bad..
I'm on the same page as patton. I fear the hidden crap as well. On a side note, its not good for anyone in le to intimidate a reasonable person,especially one that would jump in to assist an officer in distress,or an officer thats getting his ass kicked roadside by a handful of thugs.
Of course a squirrel catcher wouldn't think of that as that scenario wouldn't happen in a park,typically.....
I think in this day and age its best to say zero during a traffic stop. As officer wages decrease idiots increase,I advise everyone to check out aclu take on traffic stops and searches. Good stuff on you tube.Working in le I respect an educated person. Especially when they excercise their rights.
Edited December 12, 2012 by Dustbuster