Disarmed in a traffic stop

[tennessee01tacoma]

So tonight My friend and I and our wives were driving between Pigeon forge and Gatlinburg. We were pulled over by a park ranger when he asked if we had any weapons I already had my permit ready and said yes sir I have my handgun and I have my permit. He asked where it was. I replied in my holster on my hip. He had me place my hands on the dash while he came around to the passenger side where I was sitting. I opened the door and showed him where it was and he retrieved it and said you not in trouble I just feel more comfortable if I'm the only one armed. He returned my pistol, mag, and round from the chamber separately. Very professional and courteous. So the reason I posted this is because of all the horror stories I've heard, I thought a positive one was in order

[Spots]

Sounds like he was professinal. That said, he has no reason, nor right to disarm anyone who is in legal possession of a handgun with an HCP. If he conducted a search due to probable cause, and you didn't have an HCP then yes. He is a public servant, not an overlord or sheepdog. Sorry for the rant, it just gets on my nerves that any police officer thinks hes safer by disarming the man who openly discloses that he has a weapon and an hcp. The guy whos gonna shoot him at a trarfic stop isn't gonna tell him he has the gun beforehand.

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354770238' post='855606']
Sounds like he was professinal. That said,[b] he has no reason, nor right[/b] to disarm anyone who is in legal possession of a handgun with an HCP.
[/quote]

TN law gives him the right, and the reason is his call.

- OS

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354770238' post='855606']
Sounds like he was professinal. That said, he has no reason, nor right to disarm anyone who is in legal possession of a handgun with an HCP. If he conducted a search due to probable cause, and you didn't have an HCP then yes. He is a public servant, not an overlord or sheepdog. Sorry for the rant, it just gets on my nerves that any police officer thinks hes safer by disarming the man who openly discloses that he has a weapon and an hcp. The guy whos gonna shoot him at a trarfic stop isn't gonna tell him he has the gun beforehand.
[/quote]
Please don't misunderstand my post as I'm not totally cool with being disarmed. I totally agree with you but in that moment you're at the mercy of the officer. He made a point to tell me I wasn't in trouble for legally having my handgun. He was professional and even let my friend off for speeding. Edited December 6, 2012 by tennessee01tacoma

[Spots]

Ok let me rephrase. I do understand that its illegal to carry a handgun, with the hcp being the defense. That said, I still see no reason for disarming a law abiding citzen. I've met some damn fine officers, but I've meet some damn fine idiots who I wouldn't trust with a slingshot. I will admit to not being as studied up on the subject as I should be, but I will leave off with this. As I said before, the man who is gonna shoot you at a traffic stop isn't gonna show you his hcp, and let you take his weapon. So the officer can give himself a false sense of security all day. And just because its legal, doesn't make it right.

[Spots]

[quote name='tennessee01tacoma' timestamp='1354770638' post='855609']

Please don't misunderstand my post as I'm not totally cool with being disarmed. I totally agree with you but in that moment you're at the mercy of the officer. He made a point to tell me I wasn't in trouble for legally having my handgun. He was professional and even let my friend off for speeding.
[/quote]

You are correct that your at the officers mercy, and I'm glad he was a professional about it. That said, it still irrates me when an LEO feels the need to disarm someone who has done no wrong, and openly provided information about having a weapon and its whereabouts.

[tennessee01tacoma]

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354770944' post='855612']


You are correct that your at the officers mercy, and I'm glad he was a professional about it. That said, it still irrates me when an LEO feels the need to disarm someone who has done no wrong, and openly provided information about having a weapon and its whereabouts.
[/quote]Totally agree. If I hadn't been straightforward and honest sure disarm me.

[Spots]

[quote name='Oh Shoot' timestamp='1354770535' post='855608']


TN law gives him the right, and the reason is his call.

- OS
[/quote]

To bad most officers will never have to answer for their reasons for doing most of what they do. I may seem jaded or upset, but I've seen one to many police officers flip on lights to run the red, speed to nowhere in the cruiser that they drive home on the tax payers dime, and basically abuse the power given to them by the citzen. This is not meant as a blanket statement and I have the utmost respect for those honest LEO's who don't take an oppurtunity to step on your toes when they get the chance. But I have the utmost contempt for those that do things because they can, not because they should. And I will not support officers who do such things, including disarming an honest citzen who has done nothing wrong, just so the officer can get a warm and fuzzy.

[Guest bkelm18]

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354771453' post='855616']


To bad most officers will never have to answer for their reasons for doing most of what they do. I may seem jaded or upset, but I've seen one to many police officers flip on lights to run the red, speed to nowhere in the cruiser that they drive home on the tax payers dime, and basically abuse the power given to them by the citzen. This is not meant as a blanket statement and I have the utmost respect for those honest LEO's who don't take an oppurtunity to step on your toes when they get the chance. But I have the utmost contempt for those that do things because they can, not because they should. And I will not support officers who do such things, including disarming an honest citzen who has done nothing wrong, just so the officer can get a warm and fuzzy.
[/quote]

So are there law abiding citizen bumper stickers that we can put on our cars that make it so officers know that we're cool beans? If they want to disarm you to get a warm fuzzy, they're going to do it. If you don't like it, stop complaining and write your Congress critters to get the law changed.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354771453' post='855616']As I said before, the man who is gonna shoot you at a traffic stop isn't gonna show you his hcp, and let you take his weapon.
[/quote]

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354771453' post='855616']
To bad [u][b]most officers [/b][/u]will never have to answer for their reasons for doing most of what they do. I may seem jaded or upset, but I've seen one to many police officers [u][b]flip on lights to run the red[/b][/u], speed to nowhere in the cruiser that they drive home on the tax payers dime, and basically abuse the power given to them by the citzen. This is not meant as a blanket statement and I have the utmost respect for those honest LEO's who don't take an oppurtunity to step on your toes when they get the chance. But I have the utmost contempt for those that do things because they can, not because they should. And I will not support officers who do such things, including disarming an honest citzen who has done nothing wrong, [u][i][b]just so the officer can get a warm and fuzzy[/b][/i][/u].
[/quote]
This is probably a waste of time, but here is my two cents anyway. How do you know what a person is going to do on a traffic stop? Because I’ve done thousands of them and I don’t know. Go work the streets with a cop and let us know if you think their discretion should be taken away.

I had a couple come in and make a complaint on me because I turned on my overheads, blew a light, shut them off and continued on normally. They called me in and had me explain to them why I did it and played them back the communications tape. They were embarrassed at the results and apologized for making accusations. Unfortunately you don’t always know what’s causing what you see. You see it and assume the worst; others (like me) see it and give the cops the benefit of the doubt.

I openly support my local Police Officers, Troopers, and Deputies and appreciate the job they do. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/patriot.gif[/img] Edited December 6, 2012 by DaveTN

[Spots]

[quote name='bkelm18' timestamp='1354793274' post='855772']


So are there law abiding citizen bumper stickers that we can put on our cars that make it so officers know that we're cool beans? If they want to disarm you to get a warm fuzzy, they're going to do it. If you don't like it, stop complaining and write your Congress critters to get the law changed.
[/quote]

Don't worry I do. And my big thing is more the fact that the guy who qill do aomething bad is gonna have the gun in his lap at the traffic stop. When the officer steps up that'll be the end of it. All those warm and fuzzies that he gets from someone who has done everything right will do nothing but provide false security. I know the man just wants to make it home. But there are always safer jobs. Nobody makes you become a police officer, just like nobody made me sign up for the USMC. I support my local LEO's, and appreciate what they do. But at the end of the day, you are still a civil servant that works for the citizens, not above them.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Spots

[TGO David]

[quote name='Oh Shoot' timestamp='1354770535' post='855608']
TN law gives him the right, and the reason is his call.

- OS
[/quote]

Very true. I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I were an officer. My primary goal would be -- as I am sure it is theirs -- to go home to my family at the end of my shift.

[Dolomite_supafly]

People loose their minds all the time. Just because someone has a HCP doesn't mean they won't flip out and do something rash. We have read about it dozens of times on here where a HCP holder does something stupid. And as an officer if they can do something to prevent injuries to anyone it is a good thing.

Think about it. A HCP holder flips out and pulls his gun on the officer. The officer responds and kills the HCP holder. Who won? No one because one man lost his life and another has to live with taking that life for the rest of his life. The families of both will suffer for the rest of their lives. The officer and department will get sued. Especially if the officer knew and did not disarm the HCP holder.

I know it would weigh heavily on me if I did not do everything in my power to prevent conflict.

Dolomite

[G27]

What do you think is going to happen? Is the cop going to shoot you at random after he disarms you? Or at that exact moment will you be attacked by a roving band of baddies who decided to attack you with a cop standing there?

I understand ideologies, but why get bent about this? I don't get it.

[GlockSpock]

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]People loose their minds all the time. Just because someone has a HCP doesn't mean they won't flip out and do something rash. We have read about it dozens of times on here where a HCP holder does something stupid. And as an officer if they can do something to prevent injuries to anyone it is a good thing.[/font][/color][/quote]

I agree that HCP holders are not immune to rash thinking and foolish actions. However, there have also been many instances of officers thinking rashly and acting foolishly. Not to mention that there are many stories of officers handling civilians' firearms dangerously while disarming.

I am always very respectful to LEO's and fully understand that their top priority is their safety and getting home to their family. But just because they want to get home to their family does not mean that everything is justifiable for them to achieve this. Approaching all vehicles with their gun drawn and then handcuffing your hands to the steering wheel would greater insure that they get home safely, but I feel doing so would be greatly frowned upon.

I'm not one that would or will make an issue or scene if this were to happen to me. I would comply, and do so very politely. It is just something that bothers me internally that it is even an issue. I suppose the root of what bothers me is that officers (arguably) have to be in the state of mind that they are. Perhaps it is mostly due to the world we live in, or perhaps it is mostly due to training, but the fact that an officer fears his life is in danger over a petty traffic stop bothers me. I understand that many times it is a traffic stop in which your hard criminals are caught. But I like the stories in which the officer is relieved to find out that the driver is a HCP holder much more than the stories in which the officer feels it necessary to disarm someone. Edited December 6, 2012 by CZ9MM

[TMF]

[quote name='crimsonaudio' timestamp='1354802463' post='855811']What do you think is going to happen? Is the cop going to shoot you at random after he disarms you? Or at that exact moment will you be attacked by a roving band of baddies who decided to attack you with a cop standing there?

I understand ideologies, but why get bent about this? I don't get it.[/quote]

I don't get too bent up about this one, but I don't agree with this being a standard operating procedure; that is to say I don't believe that a person should be disarmed and have their serial run every time they have an LEO encounter. One reason is based in principle. Yes, it is the officers discretion, but the law says he must have reasonable fear for his or your safety. I believe this is intentionally left vague so that officers can exercise discretion. I think that's great, but I don't agree with that being abused. I would say that it was not the intention of the law to have officers ALWAYS disarm and HCP holder.

The other issue I have with that is safety. I don't like handing a person a loaded weapon. I further don't want someone handling MY loaded weapon and unloading it if they have no idea how it works. This is how accidents happen. Not all officers are knowledgeable of ALL firearms and how to safely unload them. For example, I have several LEOs in my family. At the reunion this year we were all on the property shooting, and my cousin (who has been a city cop for 4 years) tried to handle a 1911. I'm convinced that if I handed him a loaded 1911 and told him to unload it he would shoot himself or, at a minimum, have a ND. Just my thoughts on it. If an officer told me to make it safe or simply moved it to another part of the car I would have no issue. I want the officer to feel safe as can be, but not at the expense of proper rights or gun safety.

[JayC]

[quote name='Oh Shoot' timestamp='1354770535' post='855608']
TN law gives him the right, and the reason is his call.

- OS
[/quote]

Lets assume he's quoted accurately in the OP... It would seem the 'reason' stated does not meet the definition of the law.

Because it makes me 'uncomfortable' is not a lawful reason to disarm a HCP holder under state law.

IMHO it appears to have been an illegal action under current TN law, unless the reason he gave isn't the real reason he disarmed this otherwise law abiding citizen.

Just another incident where this bad law needs to be repealed... HCP holders are not shooting officers, it's just not happening, there is NO REASONABLE OFFICER SAFETY ARGUMENT to disarm a permit holder unless the officer in question is arresting the permit holder.

It's great that his park ranger was courteous in his unlawful activity, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't have a reasonable concern that justifies disarming the OP.

[JayC]

[quote name='Dolomite_supafly' timestamp='1354802046' post='855808']
People loose their minds all the time. Just because someone has a HCP doesn't mean they won't flip out and do something rash. We have read about it dozens of times on here where a HCP holder does something stupid. And as an officer if they can do something to prevent injuries to anyone it is a good thing.

Think about it. A HCP holder flips out and pulls his gun on the officer. The officer responds and kills the HCP holder. Who won? No one because one man lost his life and another has to live with taking that life for the rest of his life. The families of both will suffer for the rest of their lives. The officer and department will get sued. Especially if the officer knew and did not disarm the HCP holder.

I know it would weigh heavily on me if I did not do everything in my power to prevent conflict.

Dolomite
[/quote]

But this just isn't happening... You could pull somebody over and an 8 foot tall bigfoot covered in hair could jump out of the trunk and kill you... which is about as likely to happen as a valid permit holder is to shoot an officer during a traffic stop.

The big problem here is, we don't know how often officers are disarming law abiding citizens, and nothing happens... There are no penalties if the officer breaks the disarming law, which appears to be happening on a regular basis. At the very least an officer unlawfully disarming a permit holder should be a criminal offense. It would be nice to require that every disarming be documented under the penalty of perjury stating the reason the permit holder was disarmed.

Clearly a SOP (standard operating procedure) to disarm all permit holders during traffic stops would not be lawful under current state law, yet it appears that some officers and possibly some departments have such a policy.

But, lets pretend there is such a rash of officer safety concerns that some permit holders need to be disarmed... why on earth do the serial numbers of their firearms need to be ran? This is [u]creating a computerized gun database[/u], and we should have laws (with criminal sanctions) preventing officers from running serial numbers on firearms unless that have probable cause the firearm in question is stolen. Edited December 6, 2012 by JayC

[sschrick]

just curious to the OP, I know you were ready to present the officer your HCP, but you have no obligation to do so unless he asks for it.

just wondering on your beliefs/thoughts regarding why you had it ready to present to him. . .

[ttocswob]

[quote name='tennessee01tacoma' timestamp='1354769734' post='855604']
... I just feel more comfortable if I'm the [b]only one[/b] armed. ...
[/quote]
I assume by your location this was a federal park ranger, an "Only One" in David Codrea parlance. Each such incident makes me a little less comfortable.

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='JayC' timestamp='1354805850' post='855841']
But this just isn't happening... You could pull somebody over and an 8 foot tall bigfoot covered in hair could jump out of the trunk and kill you... which is about as likely to happen as a valid permit holder is to shoot an officer during a traffic stop.

The big problem here is, we don't know how often officers are disarming law abiding citizens, and nothing happens... [color=#0000FF]There are no penalties if the officer breaks the disarming law[/color], which appears to be happening on a regular basis. At the very least an officer unlawfully disarming a permit holder should be a criminal offense. It would be nice to require that every disarming be documented under the penalty of perjury stating the reason the permit holder was disarmed.

Clearly a SOP (standard operating procedure) to disarm all permit holders during traffic stops would not be lawful under current state law, yet it appears that some officers and possibly some departments have such a policy.

But, lets pretend there is such a rash of officer safety concerns that some permit holders need to be disarmed... why on earth do the serial numbers of their firearms need to be ran? This is [u]creating a computerized gun database[/u], and we should have laws (with criminal sanctions) preventing officers from running serial numbers on firearms unless that have probable cause the firearm in question is stolen.
[/quote]

Please point me to the disarming law you are talking about.

Also, every single person in the state who has a firearm on them, HCP or not, is breaking the law.

Dolomite

[S&WForty]

My little data point... I got pulled over for a warning on Thanksgiving. I fumbled trying to give the officer my HCP with my DL. He said leave the HCP in my wallet then asked if I was armed and where. I said "right hip," and he said, "just keep your hands on the wheel while we talk."

MPD.

Dolomite's post(#13) above makes a lot of sense. I rather the firearm not be handled, but anyone can snap. If they want it removed, I can't blame them. I'm glad my officer chose to handle it the way he did.



Edited December 6, 2012 by S&WForty

[Guest lilmule]

He was courteous,many do not explain you arnt in trouble.
He has the right under the law,and most like to go home at night when the day is over.
While you may not be predisposed at using the firearm it is a top reason traffic stops for them getting shot.
Rangers,tva cops all are a bit more so inclined than the average county mounty.
And if you show disdain,are agruementative it wont help it at all.
While your permit covers you in say state parks,some rangers etc do not know this as signs say different,and an open carry there would be non advisable,as you would get a lil extra att.Meaning the buffet dinner at the lodge is out with a 45 strapped on ones side.
One does have to use sense,you did as you should.

[RobertNashville]

So....the OP posts about a GOOD experience where the LEO acted within his discretion and within the law but people still find reason to complain???

I guess there just aren't enough examples where LEO's didn't act responsibly and appropriately for people to complain about.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Some people are going to complain about LEO no matter how good of a job they did.

Dolomite