"PRIVATE" security Rambo at Wallmart kills a shoplifter.

[TMF]

[quote name='K191145' timestamp='1353980866' post='851090']

Well i'm glad you cleared that up, so the next time I catch some thief breaking into my tool shed i'll just shoot him in the back, much easier that way. He started the situation anyway.[/quote]

Well I don't think that's exactly what anyone is saying. Folks are mistaking measures taken to protect your property as punitive rather than protective. He wasn't killed because he shoplifted. He was killed because he shoplifted, then fought the security guard. If i catch someone stealing out of my toolshed I have every friggin right to confront them. If they chose to escalate the situation with physical violence you better believe I'm going to respond with a greater level of violence.

Besides, f**k this guy. He was a dirtbag, likely raised from dirtbags, and will no longer contaminate society.

[scoutfsu]

[quote name='K191145' timestamp='1353980866' post='851090']
Well i'm glad you cleared that up, so the next time I catch some thief breaking into my tool shed i'll just shoot him in the back, much easier that way. He started the situation anyway.
[/quote]

Good deal guy. I recommend putting them through the medulla oblongotta region to ensure a complete separation of the CNS. Less twitching that way.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1353982677' post='851100']
Besides, f**k this guy. He was a dirtbag, likely raised from dirtbags, and will no longer contaminate society.
[/quote]

For the win

[G27]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1353973998' post='851030']
No one is asking you to risk anything, or saying that you should do anything. A Security Guard with the help of a couple of employees was doing his job. Since we don’t know what happened I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt to the Security Guard and the employees; not dirt bag thief.

I know I’m really going out on a limb here, but I doubt those store employees jumped that guy and choked him out for no reason.
Does Wal-Mart have a company policy that says the only shop lifters you can take into custody are those that come willingly?[/quote]
You know, that's an excellent point - I had assumed (pesky word) that WM's policy was like most corporations - hands off under all circumstances. But after going back and reading through the (potentially dated) WM policies posted earlier, I'm not sure the guard did anything against WM policies. That's really the sticking point for me - if he abided by the rules of the property owner, then I don't have a problem with the result if they were simply subduing someone who had become violent after approach.

I assumed (there's that word) that he had taken it upon himself to deal with this issue in a manner counter to WM's policy, and that assumption may well have been incorrect.

So I'm doing something you rarely see on the internet and offering a mea culpa, at least until we know more.

[dlm37015]

ya know it will be a very big lawsuit over this. if he hadnt stole anything he would still be alive.i have a retail buisness and yes i go after shoplifters and force is met with force . the real simple thing about this dont steal you wont get hurt

[mikegideon]

[quote name='dlm37015' timestamp='1353984863' post='851120']
ya know it will be a very big lawsuit over this. if he hadnt stole anything he would still be alive.i have a retail buisness and yes i go after shoplifters and force is met with force . the real simple thing about this dont steal you wont get hurt
[/quote]

You just pick them up and shake them like a rag doll, right?

[K191145]

I don't have much sympathy for a common theif but OFTEN, a completly innocent person will be accused and assualted by some over zealous private security guard or employee. That was the case of a friend of mines wife, a very nice lady who has a good job and no reason to shoplift. I guess she made the mistake of putting her gloves, ones she owned for some time and it was determined very quickly that the store didn't carry or sell that brand and style of gloves, in her coat pocket when some idiot employee/guard came up behind her and grabed her arm so tight it left a mark. needless to say she didn't even get an apology from the manager after being assualted and declared innocent. Although it would have been tempting to help him, I had to talk my friend out of waiting for that idiot outside the store after closing hours. The one thing I hate more than a guilty person getting away with a crime is an innocent person being accused and assualted by some store security guard or employee who is not a law enforcement officer and I really believe that happens quite a bit. They had better be damn sure and have undisputable evidense before they put their claws on a person. My mom is 84 and doesn't drive hardly so me and other family members take her to where she needs or wants to go, when I take her shopping I get on to her for sticking her hands in her pockets to warm them up in the store because I will not tolerate some store security/employee accusing her of stealing, and if they ever put their claws on her there WILL be an incident. When I started this thread I really wanted to address "PRIVATE SECURITY" and how far they can and should go, not weather some thief deserved to die for some CD's which I believe he deserves jail for that crime. I still contend that a security guard that is not a government law enforcement officer or deputized in some way has no more authority to physically handle anyone else than any other "PRIVATE CIVILIAN" unless it's a matter of self defense or defense of another person, or defense of your personal property in which there are limits to that. If someone want to arrest or detain me, they had better have the name of a city, county, state, or U.S. in front of an official title.

[Guest Gwith40]

I could write a book on the subject of private security. I spent a few years working in the industry and know a bit about it. First, it would be wise not to generalize about the people who work in the business. You don't know who you are dealing with, unless you know the security officer personally. I saw everything from kids with high school diplomas who could barely read, to people with masters degrees...kids who would run from their own shadows to guys with black belts and pretty good fighting skills. One of my favorite days was qualifying on the police range and out-shooting the police officers there. The only guy who shot as well as I did later wound up as a swat officer. Again, be careful about generalizations.

My first post was an upscale mall. We are talking three and four hundred dollar blouses...and that has been quite a while back. I learned the hard way not to put my neck out for store personnel. At least most of them. When it comes to theft, the whole situation is a circle-jerk. In one instance, I was able to use information the bad check writers/shoplifters had left behind to ultimately track their identification and addresses. After I spent all day doing this, I was informed by the store manager that they would not prosecute because "it wasn't worth her spending a day in court, for them to turn them loose." I knew which stores would prosecute and which ones would not. Most would not, so I got in no hurry to get to their store, unless someone was being physically assaulted. The funny part was that store managers would cry about theft, but do nothing about it. They were right about the court part, though. Most shoplifters get nothing more than a wrist slap.

Working in an environment like that is not easy. Security is generally there for looks and that is about it. Thieves can sniff that out pretty quickly and are not fooled by it. You are put in a position where stores complain about theft and try to make it look like it is your fault, when they will do nothing about it. It is kind of like fighting a house fire with a garden hose. Not very effective.

I was glad to go on to other environments and get away from retail. Even at that, though, the job can still be tough. There were times when we really had to bend the rules to the breaking point, in order to do the job. As has been clearly pointed out here, you are not a police officer but sometimes people expect you to act like one.

There are good and bad people in the security field, just like any other. In this particular case, I would suspect they tried to detain this guy and he decided to fight. Sometimes it goes that way. I doubt anyone on this board would not defend themselves in that circumstance.

[personDJ]

If the person takes from me something I earned I shoot. if hunger has you then ask, I will feed you but if you take my food I shoot you.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='K191145' timestamp='1353985759' post='851124']
I don't have much sympathy for a common theif but OFTEN, a completly innocent person will be accused and assualted by some over zealous private security guard or employee.
[/quote]
Most shoplifters are innocent. They all have their sad azz stories about how they didn’t steal anything and the store was setting them up. Right up to the point where the security officer plays back the video of them hiding stuff on them and walking out the door. “OFTEN”? …. Please.

However… That isn’t what happened here. This was a convicted shoplifter. That information came from the Georgia Department of Corrections that leads me to believe he has done time. It wasn’t a store security guard that made the initial stop, it was the store manager. When the suspect ran the store manager grabbed him by the hood of his sweatshirt causing him to go down. He came back up and attacked the manager, hitting him in the face and chest.

If someone attacked a Police Officer like that I think most people know they would get hurt and go to jail, I don’t know why anyone would expect a business owner to allow a thief to run off.

Unfortunately this Security Officer is probably hosed. Wal-Mart has suspended the two employees and “removed” the Security Officer. They are turning their backs on their employees. But then, how could we expect anything less from Wal-Mart?

What’s happening here isn’t right. But these store employees may not have the money to be able to defend themselves. Hopefully if this gets enough attention; someone will come forward to help them.

[quote name='K191145' timestamp='1353985759' post='851124']
I still contend that a security guard that is not a government law enforcement officer or deputized in some way has no more authority to physically handle anyone else than any other "PRIVATE CIVILIAN" unless it's a matter of self defense or defense of another person, or defense of your personal property in which there are limits to that. If someone want to arrest or detain me, they had better have the name of a city, county, state, or U.S. in front of an official title.
[/quote]

Then you are in the wrong state. A citizen in this state can make an arrest just like a cop. Just because someone that doesn’t have a badge stops you when you are committing a crime, doesn’t give you the right to attack them.

People that are wrongly accused don’t fight. They stop, they deal with the situation, they get a lawyer and they sue. Guilty people fight and try to get away.

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='personDJ' timestamp='1354005010' post='851194']
If the person takes from me something I earned I shoot. if hunger has you then ask, I will feed you but if you take my food I shoot you.
[/quote]

And you will be charged with murder, sentenced and spend some time in prison. You [u]cannot[/u] legally shoot anyone in the defense of property, no matter if they are stealing somethign worth $1 or $50,000.
***********************************************************************************************************

As of yet we have no clue what killed him. He could have fallen and hit his head. I watched a guy die inside of 30 minutes because of brain stem swelling after taking a very mild hit die. We had a guy who resisted the pat down and was taken to the ground. He did not get slammed or hit in the head or anything and was just being forced to the ground. He quit breathing, his heart stopped immediately and had it not been for an officer to start CPR the guy would have probably died. We stood there dumbfounded and reviewed the tapes over and over again and saw nothing that could have caused this. After he woke up he was transported to the hospita and they could not find a single injury, bruises or anything.

The body is a complex machine and just like any complex machine it can fail for no apparent reason.

Dolomite

[K191145]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354020185' post='851218']

Then you are in the wrong state. A citizen in this state can make an arrest just like a cop. Just because someone that doesn’t have a badge stops you when you are committing a crime, doesn’t give you the right to attack them.

People that are wrongly accused don’t fight. They stop, they deal with the situation, they get a lawyer and they sue. Guilty people fight and try to get away.
[/quote]

People who are wrongly accused don't fight? what utter bull sh!t. First of all, i'm sure most all shoplifters are actually guilty but some accused are innocent. Second, I don't shoplift or steal so I know i'm innocent, and I also have principals so i'm not going to allow some Jo Blow neanderthal civilian, no matter what title he claims for himself to put his monkey hands on me, that's called an assualt. The "situation" will be delt with. You had better have an "official" badge if you want to arrest or detain me or be prepared for me rightfully defending myself.

[E4 No More]

The amount of speculation in here is amazing, and it's refreshing to see that the OP admits to his baggage and his seeing the world through colored lenses because of it.

I guess I was one of the "Wannabe's" referred to by the OP. I worked security in Missouri having run the gamut of low risk to very high risk postings. The very high risk posting was working in the Westport district of Kansas City. This was a place that had 16 bars in 3 square blocks that even the KCPD didn't come into on the weekends without being dispatched, and they wouldn't [u]be[/u] dispatched when they were in blackout conditions, (the time that there were so many calls for serious felonies [u]in progress[/u] that they couldn't answer any lesser calls for many hours later). The KCPD was in blackout condition more than 3/4 of the weekends throughout the year. I could tell you that in the 2 years working there as opposed to the 5.5 years that I worked as a police officer that: I made more felony [u]and[/u] misdemeanor [u]arrests[/u] with a 100% conviction rate; I was assaulted and injured more times; I came half of a revolver's trigger pull from shooting someone to protect someone else from a baseball bat; I was respected by the police officers in the district enough that when they did handle something in that area that they called-off their back-up when I was present; I was a tested witness by the city court; or that the officers admired my courage to do such a job, but I doubt that would make a difference to someone who colors all security guards the same. Oh, and I did all of this for not much more than minimum wage at the time.

This "Wannabe" later became a police officer of the quality that his Chief of Police would eventally comment that he wished his entire department was made-up of officers like me. I also quit the PD in part from knowledge of other officers doing crap what would make the experience of the OP's wife laughably miniscule by comparison.

[Guest RevScottie]

"When the suspect ran the store manager grabbed him by the hood of his sweatshirt causing him to go down."

Does a private citizen have the right to use physical force to detain a suspected fleeing criminal? Will a court of law see the manager as being guilty of starting the "fight"?

Bottom line is both the manager and the thief were playing "stupid games". What if the thief had a firearm and decided to use it to defend himself against the manager and shot innocent bystanders? There is way too much risk to be getting into physical altercations over property theft.

[E4 No More]

Tennessee Law:

[b]40-7-109. Arrest by private person -- Grounds.

(a)[/b] A private person may arrest another:

[b](1)[/b] For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;

[b](2)[/b] When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

[b](3)[/b] When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed the felony.

[b]( [/b] A private person who makes an arrest of another pursuant to §§ 40-7-109 -- 40-7-115 shall receive no arrest fee or compensation for the arrest.

. Edited November 27, 2012 by SWJewellTN

[RobertNashville]

I would assume, however, than when a private citizen makes or attempts to make an arrest he/she takes on the same fiduciary responsibility for the accused's safety as does a police officer??? If so, and you "arrest someone" and he dies while in your care I think you are going to have a major problem (or at least a lot of explaining to do).

[E4 No More]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354030525' post='851306']
I would assume, however, than when a private citizen makes or attempts to make an arrest he/she takes on the same fiduciary responsibility for the accused's safety as does a police officer??? If so, and you "arrest someone" and he dies while in your care I think you are going to have a major problem (or at least a lot of explaining to do).
[/quote]Can't speak to Tennessee because I don't have the motivation to research it, but yes, you have the same responsibilities and therefore some major s'plaining to do.

In this case there's not enough information to come to any conclusion about what happened. Time will tell, I guess. I understand both sides of the camp, but at 52 years old myself I certainly take my age and general health into account before engaging in any activity. Dude may have had some health problems that he was aware of before he engaged in activity that was detrimental to said health condition. We just don't know the whole story. What I am in perfect agreement with is that I'm not crying over a thief's death.

[Guest RevScottie]

Here is a case similar to the Walmart one that resulted in charges of reckless homicide being filed:


[url="http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/mar/31/accused-burglar-caught-held-choke-hold-dies-two-da/"]http://www.commercia...ld-dies-two-da/[/url]

From the story:

"I really can't comment on a pending case, but as a point of law you are not allowed to use deadly force to protect property -- only to protect yourself or another human being," Tom Henderson, administrative assistant in the Shelby County District Attorney's Office, said Thursday.

So is using a choke hold considered using deadly force? Edited November 27, 2012 by RevScottie

[E4 No More]

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354031539' post='851318']
Here is a case similar to the Walmart one that resulted in charges of reckless homicide being filed:


[url="http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/mar/31/accused-burglar-caught-held-choke-hold-dies-two-da/"]http://www.commercia...ld-dies-two-da/[/url]

From the story:

"I really can't comment on a pending case, but as a point of law you are not allowed to use deadly force to protect property -- only to protect yourself or another human being," Tom Henderson, administrative assistant in the Shelby County District Attorney's Office, said Thursday.

[color=#ff0000]So is using a choke hold considered using deadly force?[/color]
[/quote]Well, a choke hold, yes, but a neck restraint that people typically refer to as a choke hold wasn't back in the day. My martial arts instructor was the one who showed it to Sgt. Lindell of the KCPD, who later taught it widely as his technique, (the bastage!). When properly applied it doesn't choke the suspect but rather cuts-off the blood supply to the brain to cause the subject to pass-out long enough to be secured with handcuffs.

[TMF]

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354031539' post='851318']
So is using a choke hold considered using deadly force?[/quote]

I would say no. Not unless he kept him in that choke hold for a while after it was clear he was out. Choking someone to unconsciousness rarely results in death so long as you release and let the blood flow again as soon as they stop fighting.

[K191145]

[quote name='SWJewellTN' timestamp='1354030311' post='851303']
Tennessee Law:

[b]40-7-109. Arrest by private person -- Grounds.

(a)[/b] A private person may arrest another:

[b](1)[/b] For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;

[b](2)[/b] When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

[b](3)[/b] When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed the felony.

[b]( [/b]A private person who makes an arrest of another pursuant to §§ 40-7-109 -- 40-7-115 shall receive no arrest fee or compensation for the arrest.

.
[/quote]

They had better be sure the person they intend to arrest is actually comitting a crime or this could come into play.
[quote][b]( (1) [/b]Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is [b]not engaged in unlawful activity[/b] and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force against another person when and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or [b]attempted use of unlawful force.[/b] [/quote]

[E4 No More]

[quote name='K191145' timestamp='1354033600' post='851342']
They had better be sure the person they intend to arrest is actually comitting a crime or this could come into play.
[/quote]Agreed, but they'd better be sure of that anyways. I worked security from 1986 to 1989 with one year of that concurrent as a part-time police officer, and Missouri had no such law at that time. Don't know if they do now.

[K191145]

[quote name='SWJewellTN' timestamp='1354029515' post='851296']
The amount of speculation in here is amazing, and it's refreshing to see that the OP admits to his baggage and his seeing the world through colored lenses because of it.

I guess I was one of the "Wannabe's" referred to by the OP. I worked security in Missouri having run the gamut of low risk to very high risk postings. The very high risk posting was working in the Westport district of Kansas City. This was a place that had 16 bars in 3 square blocks that even the KCPD didn't come into on the weekends without being dispatched, and they wouldn't [u]be[/u] dispatched when they were in blackout conditions, (the time that there were so many calls for serious felonies [u]in progress[/u] that they couldn't answer any lesser calls for many hours later). The KCPD was in blackout condition more than 3/4 of the weekends throughout the year. I could tell you that in the 2 years working there as opposed to the 5.5 years that I worked as a police officer that: I made more felony [u]and[/u] misdemeanor [u]arrests[/u] with a 100% conviction rate; I was assaulted and injured more times; I came half of a revolver's trigger pull from shooting someone to protect someone else from a baseball bat; I was respected by the police officers in the district enough that when they did handle something in that area that they called-off their back-up when I was present; I was a tested witness by the city court; or that the officers admired my courage to do such a job, but I doubt that would make a difference to someone who colors all security guards the same. Oh, and I did all of this for not much more than minimum wage at the time.

This "Wannabe" later became a police officer of the quality that his Chief of Police would eventally comment that he wished his entire department was made-up of officers like me. I also quit the PD in part from knowledge of other officers doing crap what would make the experience of the OP's wife laughably miniscule by comparison.
[/quote]

I never said [b]ALL [/b]security officers were wannabe's or yahoo's but I do contend there's quite a few that are. Anyone can claim their the stores or businesses security guard without any training or qualifications, all they need to be is an employee. I've know a couple of yahoos who applied for work for a bail bondsmen to be bounty hunters, I don't know if they ever got the job, I hope they didn't because they wern't much different than the people they wanted to hunt. Yahoo's are out there working as so-called security guards and bounty hunters etc. I know you probably know that but it seems that some on here believe every person accused is quilty and all private security guards are hero angles.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354031539' post='851318']...So is using a choke hold considered using deadly force?[/quote]

If the choke hold caused or contributed to the man's death then I'd say you would have to consider it "deadly force" but I'm not sure that even matters.

When one person's actions causes or contributes to the death of another then I think generally, someone is going to be charged with some sort of crime unless they can make a rational claim of self-defense.

[Guest RevScottie]

"One employee said he held the man in a choke hold and told him to tap when he couldn't breathe."

So if he doesn't "tap out" like you see on TV you just continue to choke him to death?