"PRIVATE" security Rambo at Wallmart kills a shoplifter.

[Guest HvyMtl]

[quote name='K191145' timestamp='1353985759' post='851124']
I don't have much sympathy for a common theif but OFTEN, a completly innocent person will be accused and assualted by some over zealous private security guard or employee. That was the case of a friend of mines wife, a very nice lady who has a good job and no reason to shoplift. I guess she made the mistake of putting her gloves, ones she owned for some time and it was determined very quickly that the store didn't carry or sell that brand and style of gloves, in her coat pocket when some idiot employee/guard came up behind her and grabed her arm so tight it left a mark. needless to say she didn't even get an apology from the manager after being assualted and declared innocent. Although it would have been tempting to help him, I had to talk my friend out of waiting for that idiot outside the store after closing hours. The one thing I hate more than a guilty person getting away with a crime is an innocent person being accused and assualted by some store security guard or employee who is not a law enforcement officer and I really believe that happens quite a bit. They had better be damn sure and have undisputable evidense before they put their claws on a person. My mom is 84 and doesn't drive hardly so me and other family members take her to where she needs or wants to go, when I take her shopping I get on to her for sticking her hands in her pockets to warm them up in the store because I will not tolerate some store security/employee accusing her of stealing, and if they ever put their claws on her there WILL be an incident. When I started this thread I really wanted to address "PRIVATE SECURITY" and how far they can and should go, not weather some thief deserved to die for some CD's which I believe he deserves jail for that crime. I still contend that a security guard that is not a government law enforcement officer or deputized in some way has no more authority to physically handle anyone else than any other "PRIVATE CIVILIAN" unless it's a matter of self defense or defense of another person, or defense of your personal property in which there are limits to that. If someone want to arrest or detain me, they had better have the name of a city, county, state, or U.S. in front of an official title.
[/quote]
I do not want to get you started on the TSA...

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354048074' post='851509']
It is the way you say it Robert. You ride the edge of provocative with your responses, then get indignant when someone calls you on it.[/quote]
Since you feel that way then I'll refrain from commenting on your posts in the future.

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354048074' post='851509']As for the rest, you are free to allow people to steal your property and wait for the police. People protect their property everyday without being charged with a crime. An individual has to take it pretty far to find themselves in a courtroom in this state. I choose not to allow someone to take my stuff. That is my right. If someone decides to take my things I will stop them with force from taking it. It is up to the criminal how much force I will use. That is how it works. The law supports that. It isn't about how valuable the stuff is. It is about something completely different. Being a victim is a choice, and I choose not to be.[/quote]
Feel free to confront if you wish...tell me I'm "choosing to be a victim" if you wish...but I see nothing worth emulating in possibly causing the death of someone just to protect "stuff"; even less so when it's not even my stuff.

I have insurance to protect stuff, I have arms to protect my life and the lives of others. Edited November 27, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest RevScottie]

Here is a link to a Tennesse Attorney Generals view on licensed security officers and citizens arrests.

[url="http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2003/op/op18.pdf"]http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2003/op/op18.pdf[/url]

Of interest for this discussion are questions 8 & 9

[font="Times New Roman"]8. May a private person/security officer use handcuffs or other legal restraining devices[/font]
[font="Times New Roman"]in order to effectuate an arrest under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-621?[/font]
[font="Times New Roman"]9. Under what authority may a private person/security officer use force to make or[/font]
[font="Times New Roman"]enforce an arrest of another person?[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]Answers[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman"]8. Yes. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-621 authorizes private citizens making an arrest to[/font][/font]
[font="Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman"]“use force reasonably necessary,” to effectuate an arrest, but only if the arrested individual has fled[/font][/font]
[font="Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman"]or otherwise resisted arrest.[/font][/font]
[font="Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman"]9. The statutory authority for a private person or a security guard to use force to[/font][/font]
[font="Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman"]effectuate an arrest lies in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-621. See question 8.[/font][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][font="Times New Roman"]It would appear from this opinion that a store employee/private citizen or licensed security guard has authority to use reasonable force to arrest/detain a suspected thief. This appears to put the manager who first laid hands on the suspect in the clear. After that the use of excessive force during the resulting altercation is up for debate.[/font][/font]

[TMF]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354048839' post='851518']

Feel free to confront if you wish...tell me I'm "choosing to be a victim" if you wish...but I see nothing worth emulating in possibly causing the death of someone just to protect "stuff"; even less so when it's not even my stuff.

I have insurance to protect stuff, I have arms to protect my life and the lives of others.[/quote]

No one is saying that. You're picking a fight that isn't there. Simply put, it is up to the criminal as to the level of force used against him. I can't shoot someone if they're stealing my car. But if that person becomes violent when I confront them it is a different story. If he flees then he is the problem of law enforcement.

You seem to equate someone protecting their stuff as vigilantism.

[TMF]

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354048879' post='851519']This appears to put the manager who first laid hands on the suspect in the clear. After that the use of excessive force during the resulting altercation is up for debate.[/font][/font][/quote]

I don't think it is. A choke hold is a pretty standard technique for subduing someone. I've been choked out several dozen times and have choked out others about as many. It is quick, effective and relatively safe. We don't know what actually killed him, so we'll have to see. But even if it was the result of an overly aggressive choke, I doubt anyone will see any jail time. Just lots of civil suits.

[cybernorris]

I've met a couple of Walmart loss prevention people in Coffee County. My understanding is they have specific instructions to not attempt to apprehend once the subject is off the sidewalk. They must stop the subject outside the door on the sidewalk. If the subject makes it to the asphalt, they are merely to gather information that can help police apprehend the subject. Again this is my understanding of what they told me.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354040614' post='851425']
A man DIED over a couple of hundred dollars worth of electronics. [/quote]
No he died because he attacked a store manager trying to stop him. This quit being about shoplifting and started being about violence when the thief started punching the store Manager in the face.

Will the employees be charged criminally? Not likely. Not many DA’s are going to want to charge honest citizens with killing a dirt bag that violently attacked a store manager while trying to escape.

Will there be a civil suit? Of course there will be; Wal-Mart is involved. Some of the deepest pockets in the country and a company that is easy for a jury to hate. I would guess the lawyers are circling the family’s house now. Will there be a trial? Doubtful, the attorney will cut a sweetheart deal for himself with a settlement and Wal-Mart will pay for a nuisance suit to go away.

[Guest RevScottie]

I don't care what the circumstances were he didn't deserve to be held down by two people while the third apparently choked him to death then continued to pin down his lifeless body in the parking lot. That isn't justice, that is at best homicide and at worst murder. Edited November 28, 2012 by RevScottie

[TMF]

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354064727' post='851669']I don't care what the circumstances were he didn't deserve to be held down by two people while the third apparently choked him to death then continued to pin down his lifeless body in the parking lot. That isn't justice, that is at best homicide and at worst murder.[/quote]

So, that is how it went down? Wow. I figured from the story it went much, much differently. Murder... wow.

[Sam1]

Sympathy would be given if he was stealing a loaf of bread to feed his children, but this was not the case.



[quote][color=#000000][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=3]Records show Calloway was in and out of jail at least 16 times since 1996.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

[Caster]

[quote name='rebeldrummer' timestamp='1354037263' post='851382']
i work private security ... i have had to go through training ... qualifications....blah blah blah
there is a different set of standards for ARMED vs NON - ARMED security.
each state has its own set of qualifications for each. and on top of that, some companies require certain levels of training / qualifications to be employed with them. not every security guard is a mall cop (not bashing them either!)

like another post mentioned, i have also shot (at the range) against actual LEO and ex/current military guys and have out-shot them some of them!
(not tooting my own horn either, just stating a fact!)
just because they are actual gov employees does NOT mean they are MORE qualified at what they do.
i have been in some pretty sticky situations. my company was tasked with going in after katrina and securing about 25 ATMs that were loaded
with anywhere from 30K to 150K. with reports of looting and violence, we had to have a Coast Guard escort and were armed to the teeth.
pretty rough situation.

i am not a wanna be. i dont claim to be some tactical gun guru. i dont act like an elite operator. its just my job. its security. just because there are not bullets flying over our heads and monthly training does not make it less of a profession.

sure, that dudes death is unfortunate, but i am not saddened. like others said, if he had not been doing what he was doing it would have never happened.
i wasnt there. i dont know all the details so I cant judge the whole situation.

i just dont like the whole, "lets bash private security" mentality that I have read here.
[/quote]

I have a few customers that trade with me that do private security. They're all cool guys. How long have you had a TN license?

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354046929' post='851497']
If the manager was in the wrong for pursuing the thief and dragging him to the ground in the first place then anyone helping him in the resulting fight is also in the wrong.
[/quote]

Please tell me what law the manager broke? He didn't. Breaking company policy is far from breaking the law.

I say charge the shoplifter with shoplifting, assault as well as [b][u]murder[/u][/b]. After all someone did loose their life while he was committing his crime. That way it would prevent any insurance payouts or other benefits his relatives might be entitled to,including social security benefits for relatives. I think if he was also found guilty it would prevent a win on the civil suit side by those filing on his behalf.

Dolomite

[K191145]

[quote name='HvyMtl' timestamp='1354048277' post='851513']
I do not want to get you started on the TSA...
[/quote]

LOL, you're assuming right that I don't care much for the TSA. I made this a while back.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/JMH42/TSA.jpg[/IMG]

[scoutfsu]

Man, that sure is a neat uniform.

[Guest rebeldrummer]

[quote name='Caster' timestamp='1354074961' post='851756']
I have a few customers that trade with me that do private security. They're all cool guys. How long have you had a TN license?
[/quote]

I have been in the game for about 6 years give or take....I mainly "free-lance" (bad wording I know) now. The company I was mainly employed with was sold. The company that originally owned them also owns several other small businesses and they call me to assist with more critical and or in depth jobs. My best friend / ex roomate / brother from another mother is one of the owners so I get first dibs/calls on the good assignments!! plus he knows that I know the ropes and he does not have to micro-manage any aspect of the job. I work p/t here in E.Tenn when I am not doing work for them. However, when they call, I drop EVERYTHING and head wherever they send me/us. I have been to some pretty cool places on their dime. Pay is great. Work is fun. Its overall a great gig.

[Guest TankerHC]

Not all Security are completely untrained. When Katrina hit here I had a Company subcaontracting for Dell. FEMA ran a commercial looking for ex Military for Security. I decided to apply and was brought right in. I was assigned as head of Security at the main Field Office in Jackson. Before we could go to work, we were required to undergo a FBI check, then get Licensed. Then we had to register with the Federal Beaurea Of Security and Investigative Services (There is actually a Beareau for Security Guards), Training before we could go to work was supposed to be 40 hours. Our instructors were all retired LEO's and instead of 40 hours it took 4 weeks and lasted 10 hours a day Monday through Saturday. Near the end of the second week I thought about quitting, LEO's werent cutting any slack, but I didnt, never quit anything anyway. Had to get First Aid Certified, Baton (8 Hours) Certified, Tear Gas Certified (2 hours), take a 14 hours Firearms Course (Which turned into 24 hours) that included Legal and Moral use of a Firearm with Deadly Force, Safety, Firearms Nomenclature, weapons handling, shooting fundamentals and a bunch of other things. Then we had to qualify on the Jackson, MS PD range, under the same course of fire as the JPD and MHP. Fail to qualify the first time, you got one reshoot, fail that and you were out of a job. In fact fail any of it and you were out of a job. We were then issued a carry permit, qualification was supposed to be good for 2 years, instead they made us qualify every 90 days. Not saying I (We) had anything near the training of a LEO, but the retired LEO's who conducted the training were serious about it. They had minimum reuirements and went way above those requirements. They even started us out doing PT every morning, had to stop after a week, even though everyone passed a physical, about half would have dropped dead had they continued. I was made Sgt and put in charge of a 12 man "Unit", my Office sat right next to the ICE Teams Office and I reported to them every morning, they were responsible to make sure everyone showed up, and do what ICE does (These were tactical guys, they came in, in the morning fully tacticalled up with their M4's, body Armor and carrying their Kevlars).

Did that for a year. For me it was mostly a paperwork drill. Guards made $22 per hour, I made $27.50 per hour and since we had to have 12 on at a time it was nothing to get 70 hours per week. At the time under Federal Law, Security Guards in Federal Building's were not allowed to carry Semi-Auto's, so we were issued .38 Rossi's. They changed that law and the same guys that worked under me now work over at the Federal Building downtown and all carry Glocks. Training also didnt stop after we went to work, they would come up with something every week that had to certify on.

Just pointing out that all Security Guards are not $6 an hour and untrained. Walk into any Federal Building, The Guards in those building are trained.

[mikegideon]

I had to go to a meeting at TEMA yesterday, which is on the National Guard Armory campus. They have private armed security at the front gate. That's a pretty secure facility. Those guys didn't look like wannabe types to me.

[scoutfsu]

That's because they're not wannabe's. They're police reject private security Rambos

[Guest rebeldrummer]

[quote name='scoutfsu' timestamp='1354114236' post='851873']
That's because they're not wannabe's. They're police reject private security Rambos
[/quote]

why the broad stroke, stereotype response?
are you holding a grudge? wearing your emotions on your sleeve and carrying a chip on your shoulder is NOT the way to live my friend.

[scoutfsu]

[quote name='rebeldrummer' timestamp='1354115693' post='851889']
why the broad stroke, stereotype response?
are you holding a grudge? wearing your emotions on your sleeve and carrying a chip on your shoulder is NOT the way to live my friend.
[/quote]

Tell the OP that. I didn't come up with those words.

eta: maybe this thread is getting so long that people forget a lot of what was originally said. Or maybe not reading the entire thread. IDK. Edited November 28, 2012 by scoutfsu

[RobertNashville]

As is almost always the case, those who paint with too broad a brush will splash a lot paint on places where the paint doesn't belong.

[Guest rebeldrummer]

[quote name='scoutfsu' timestamp='1354116795' post='851898']
Tell the OP that. I didn't come up with those words.

eta: maybe this thread is getting so long that people forget a lot of what was originally said. Or maybe not reading the entire thread. IDK.
[/quote]

i have read the whole thing and also have a few comments scattered in this thread. from your statement though, it seemed as if you were the one saying those words and you did not reference the original post / comment. so, we you just being sarcastic in your response or is this your opinion as well?

if you were being sarcastic than I apologize for my comment to you...
but if not...well, just read my comment to you again

[TMF]

[quote name='rebeldrummer' timestamp='1354115693' post='851889']

why the broad stroke, stereotype response?
are you holding a grudge? wearing your emotions on your sleeve and carrying a chip on your shoulder is NOT the way to live my friend.[/quote]

I believe it was sarcasm directed at the OP.

I wonder how differently folks would interpret this thread if it were titled "Shoplifter killed after violently assaulting store manager." I opened this thread expecting it to be some vigilante wannabe taking the opportunity to get his kill on. That is not what I got from the facts of the story.

[scoutfsu]

Extreme sarcasm. Just like my post under that stupid f'ing picture of the Nazi. Check out my other posts in this thread. They're a bit more informative and conversational. But some things, like that quote and picture, deserve to be ridiculed.

ETA: And my edited response wasn't meant to sound snippy. Sometimes threads get so long, a lot of what was said is forgotten or people don't read everything. Edited November 28, 2012 by scoutfsu

[mikegideon]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354117871' post='851910']
I believe it was sarcasm directed at the OP.

[/quote]

That's how I took it.