"PRIVATE" security Rambo at Wallmart kills a shoplifter.

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1353955093' post='850863']That doesn't mean the thief needs to die. No one is saying the thief shouldn't be punished.[/quote]

Making an assumption; I don't believe it was the guards intent to kill the guy. We don't know what aggression the thief showed. Best way to end a fight is to choke out the opponent. Death is always a possible outcome in any fight. I feel the store or its employees has a right to confront the thief. If a fight escalates, then it becomes more than just shoplifting.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='Lumber_Jack' timestamp='1353956210' post='850871']
Making an assumption; I don't believe it was the guards intent to kill the guy. We don't know what aggression the thief showed. Best way to end a fight is to choke out the opponent. Death is always a possible outcome in any fight. I feel the store or its employees has a right to confront the thief. If a fight escalates, then it becomes more than just shoplifting.
[/quote]

Where's ChuckieT? He sizzled a thief's junk on the hot pavement. Best takedown yet!

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Lumber_Jack' timestamp='1353956210' post='850871']
Making an assumption; I don't believe it was the guards intent to kill the guy. We don't know what aggression the thief showed. Best way to end a fight is to choke out the opponent. Death is always a possible outcome in any fight. I feel the store or its employees has a right to confront the thief. If a fight escalates, then it becomes more than just shoplifting.
[/quote]I wasn't ascribing intent one way or the other, in fact I assumed it wasn't the intent of the guard to kill the man.

Bottom line is that dead is still dead; intent will only impact the severity of the charge and how many years this guard spends in jail. Edited November 26, 2012 by RobertNashville

[TMF]

At any rate, a great loss to society for sure. He mighta cured cancer or paid taxes someday.

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1353957190' post='850881']I wasn't ascribing intent one way or the other, in fact I assumed it wasn't the intent of the guard to kill the man.

Bottom line is that dead is still dead; intent will only impact the severity of the charge and how many years this guard spends in jail.[/quote]

The assumption was on my part. And the fact that he may have been ending a fight instead of starting one. If he tried to stop the thief and the thief became aggressive and attacked the security guard, then it would be self defense.

My main point was that we don't know what happened between shoplifting and death....yet. If the guy ran down a shoplifter from behind and choked him to death, then I'd say he will be charged. But that might not have been what happened.
. Edited November 26, 2012 by Lumber_Jack

[Dennis1209]

[quote name='UncleJak' timestamp='1353937686' post='850748']
I don't believe we should kill thieves. Instead we should cut off their hands.
[/quote]

I totally disagree, that's much too harsh! A more humane punishment is "one hand" per offense. Everyone deserves a second chance!

[G27]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1353954639' post='850858']
We are a weak people when we have to stand by and watch thieves walk away.
[/quote]
LOL, the property owner doesn't think it's worth the risk over petty theft, why should you?

[Smith]

[quote name='crimsonaudio' timestamp='1353962193' post='850926']
LOL, the property owner doesn't think it's worth the risk over petty theft, why should you?
[/quote]
Property owner doesn't want to get dragged through the legal system over some "petty thief". It cost them more to do that than the merchandise. I guarantee if it wasn't cost prohibitive to prosecute "petty" crime, they would be all over them. Interesting how the system is set up to protects the thief more than the law abiding victim. Seems I've heard that sentiment before.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='crimsonaudio' timestamp='1353962193' post='850926']
LOL, the property owner doesn't think it's worth the risk over petty theft, why should you?
[/quote]

I'm callin' the Junk Sizzler when somebody steals my stuff

[G27]

[quote name='AK Guy' timestamp='1353962499' post='850929']
Property owner doesn't want to get dragged through the legal system over some "petty thief". It cost them more to do that than the merchandise. I guarantee if it wasn't cost prohibitive to prosecute "petty" crime, they would be all over them. Interesting how the system is set up to protects the thief more than the law abiding victim. Seems I've heard that sentiment before.
[/quote]
The only way they get 'dragged through the legal system' is if the guy sues for behavior like this. You think Walmart really cares about a couple of $100 DVD players walking out of their store? It's the equivalent of someone stealing less than a penny from you - how hard are you going after that guy?

Risk / reward...

[Guest MilitiaMan]

I'd like to see the employees and wannabe cop involved fired and prosecuted. Then hopefully the family of the victim sues and is awarded millions. Too much of this "power trip" crap going on in todays LE (legit or not).

[Spots]

[quote name='MilitiaMan' timestamp='1353963371' post='850940']
I'd like to see the employees and wannabe cop involved fired and prosecuted. Then hopefully the family of the victim sues and is awarded millions. Too much of this "power trip" crap going on in todays LE (legit or not).
[/quote]

Thats what needs to happen, the THIEF's family needs to be awarded money for something that idiot did wrong. I can't stand a thief, $2 or $2k it doesn't matter a thief is a thief. I don't think the security guy shoulda killed him, and I'm sure it was an accident by an untrained person, but in the end this whole thing wouldn't have happened, had that idiot not stolen something that wasn't his. Like I said in my first post. You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. He stole something, and ended up dead. Saves me money from having to feed, clothe, and house his sorry ass. Good riddance. Edited November 26, 2012 by Spots

[Chucktshoes]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1353956504' post='850877']

Where's ChuckieT? He sizzled a thief's junk on the hot pavement. Best takedown yet![/quote]
You rang?

I have no sympathy for the dead thief.

[scoutfsu]

Some embarrassing commentary in here and revealing of people's morals and ethics. And people wonder why criminals think they can do what ever they want with little to no repercussions.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='Chucktshoes' timestamp='1353967357' post='850967']
You rang?

I have no sympathy for the dead thief.
[/quote]

I'm not grief stricken either

[Garufa]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1353967588' post='850970']
I'm not grief stricken either
[/quote]

Same here. Another scumbag gone.

[G27]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1353967588' post='850970']
I'm not grief stricken either
[/quote]
Nope, nor am I.

[G27]

[quote name='scoutfsu' timestamp='1353967504' post='850969']
Some embarrassing commentary in here and revealing of people's morals and ethics. And people wonder why criminals think they can do what ever they want with little to no repercussions.
[/quote]
As I've been one of the most vocal here against the rent-a-cop's over reaction, let me ask - exactly what did anyone say here that creates an 'embarrassing commentary' that reveals peoples' (implied lack of) morals and ethics? Specifics, please - not 'if I have to explain it' dodges that are so common...

If you assume those of us who do not applaud the rambo-wannabe for violating explicitly defined employer policies that resulted resulted in a man's death - sans trial - I'd suggest this thread may well be more of a mirror than a spotlight.

The floor is yours.

[scoutfsu]

I'm talking about people thinking it's ok to let a thief be a thief because it's not on their property or it's a corporations property. The corporation doesn't think its worth the risk because the legal system has been so corrupted that anyone and everyone can be sued over nothing. If they wouldn't face frivolous lawsuits, then maybe they would be a bit more stringent about keeping their rightful goods in their store and not watching them walkout. Stealing pennies? Those pennies add up and they are someone's pennies.

Rambo wannabe? Police reject private security? renta-a-cop? cop wannabe? Sounds like a lot of people here are carrying baggage.

You talk about risk/reward? Here's one for you - [b]if you risk breaking the law, you risk consequences[/b]. Also under the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" doctrine. This thief's death is [b]directly [/b]attributable to [b][i]his [/i][/b]decision to break the law. If he did not decide it was ok to steal merchandise, he would still be alive. He decided he was above the law and things spun up from there.

Hoping that the thief's family sues Walmart for millions . I hope Walmart sues them for the thief's bad decision. He is the one that kicked this whole thing off. Everything that happened is a direct result of the decision he made.

People think it is ok to stand there and watch a criminal flaunt the law. Remember that when someone decides to come into your house or place of business and walk out with your stuff.

[mikegideon]

If they walk out with my stuff, they're gonna get their nutz sizzled.

[G27]

[quote name='scoutfsu' timestamp='1353970435' post='850989']
I'm talking about people thinking it's ok to let a thief be a thief because it's not on their property or it's a corporations property. The corporation doesn't think its worth the risk because the legal system has been so corrupted that anyone and everyone can be sued over nothing. If they wouldn't face frivolous lawsuits, then maybe they would be a bit more stringent about keeping their rightful goods in their store and not watching them walkout. Stealing pennies? Those pennies add up and they are someone's pennies.[/quote]
Fair enough - I actually brought that up - both avoiding lawsuits and the relative lack of value - both are obviously (some of) the reasons WM (in this case) doesn't pursue more aggressive policies.

But the fact remains this guy knew his employer's policies, chose to ignore them and will likely pay the price with his job. And quite possibly a conviction, as well. Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter how principled one wishes to be.

[quote]Rambo wannabe? Police reject private security? renta-a-cop? cop wannabe? Sounds like a lot of people here are carrying baggage. [/quote]
LOL, no, in this case it's simply obvious this guy rejected EVERYTHING that he was instructed. Maybe you see him as a 'man if strict morals' (said with a very serious face), but the reality is he screwed up, too - got too caught up in the moment and possibly ended up killing a guy in the process.

Maybe vigilante justice is your thing, I dunno. It's funny (and somewhat telling) how people are careful to 'wait for more details' before jumping all over the guard's case while seemingly rejoicing in the death of a man who never got to stand trial...

[quote]You talk about risk/reward? Here's one for you - [b]if you risk breaking the law, you risk consequences[/b]. Also under the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" doctrine. This thief's death is [b]directly [/b]attributable to [b][i]his [/i][/b]decision to break the law. If he did not decide it was ok to steal merchandise, he would still be alive. He decided he was above the law and things spun up from there.[/quote]
OK, so everything IS black-and-what to you - every crime punishable by death, since this person made the choice to (potentially) steal this stuff in the first place?

It would be one thing of the guy kicked in your front door to steal stuff when you were at home, but this hothead who couldn't control himself also made a choice. Difference is his choice wasn't simple theft, it ended up in someone's death.

[quote]Hoping that the thief's family sues Walmart for millions . I hope Walmart sues them for the thief's bad decision. He is the one that kicked this whole thing off. Everything that happened is a direct result of the decision he made.[/quote]
Not me.

[quote]People think it is ok to stand there and watch a criminal flaunt the law. Remember that when someone decides to come into your house or place of business and walk out with your stuff.
[/quote]
And you don't think this sounds like a wannabe cop? I don't WANT to be a cop, or I'd be one. If I see someone stealing a DVD player from WM, I'm going to be a good witness - maybe that's not 'principled' enough for you (again, said with very serious face), but my job isn't law enforcement.

If someone were being hurt, that's a different story, but that's not the case here.

And coming into my home or place of business? Again, different story. But I wouldn't expect a random passing WM employee to attack a guy for walking off with my wheelbarrow, either.

Look, I find crime (including theft) as distasteful as anyone else here - I guarantee that. But I'm not going to risk my life, or someone else's, over some stupid possession. You want to? Be my guest, but to act as if you're on some sort of moral high ground because you support a guy who chose to attack someone he was told not to, likely resulting in that guy's death, is a bit silly.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='crimsonaudio' timestamp='1353971601' post='851001']

And you don't think this sounds like a wannabe cop? I don't WANT to be a cop, or I'd be one. If I see someone stealing a DVD player from WM, I'm going to be a good witness - maybe that's not 'principled' enough for you (again, said with very serious face), but my job isn't law enforcement.

If someone were being hurt, that's a different story, but that's not the case here.
[/quote]
No one is asking you to risk anything, or saying that you should do anything. A Security Guard with the help of a couple of employees was doing his job. Since we don’t know what happened I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt to the Security Guard and the employees; not dirt bag thief.

I know I’m really going out on a limb here, but I doubt those store employees jumped that guy and choked him out for no reason.
Does Wal-Mart have a company policy that says the only shop lifters you can take into custody are those that come willingly?

I’m sorry the guy is dead, but he put the events in motion that led to his death. It’s sad that some people feel because he died at the hands of security for one of the largest corporations in this country that his family should hit the lottery or that the people during their job should be arrested.

What if he is a cop wannabe; is there something wrong with that? A lot of guys work store security until they can get on as a cop. Being a Police Officer s an honored profession. It takes a long time to get on some departments and not everyone can make the cut.

Would I stop a shop lifter or help someone else do it? Nope. But if I saw a thief attack a security guard or a cop; I would help them if they looked like they needed my help. How do you know the guard wasn’t attacked? Edited November 26, 2012 by DaveTN

[Chucktshoes]

I have worked retail for over a decade and dealt with many instances of shoplifting. I have had more than my share of scraps with ####bag thieves. Most of them started after I confronted the thief and they tried to get away by using their fists, expecting me to disengage to avoid conflict. Hehe.

The thieves have been trained by pansy assed corporate policies that they can act with impunity. They are quite surprised when they encounter someone who will give no quarter.

[K191145]

[quote name='scoutfsu' timestamp='1353970435' post='850989']
I'm talking about people thinking it's ok to let a thief be a thief because it's not on their property or it's a corporations property. The corporation doesn't think its worth the risk because the legal system has been so corrupted that anyone and everyone can be sued over nothing. If they wouldn't face frivolous lawsuits, then maybe they would be a bit more stringent about keeping their rightful goods in their store and not watching them walkout. Stealing pennies? Those pennies add up and they are someone's pennies.

Rambo wannabe? Police reject private security? renta-a-cop? cop wannabe? Sounds like a lot of people here are carrying baggage.

You talk about risk/reward? Here's one for you - [b]if you risk breaking the law, you risk consequences[/b]. Also under the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" doctrine. This thief's death is [b]directly [/b]attributable to [b][i]his [/i][/b]decision to break the law. If he did not decide it was ok to steal merchandise, he would still be alive. He decided he was above the law and things spun up from there.

Hoping that the thief's family sues Walmart for millions . I hope Walmart sues them for the thief's bad decision. He is the one that kicked this whole thing off. Everything that happened is a direct result of the decision he made.

People think it is ok to stand there and watch a criminal flaunt the law. Remember that when someone decides to come into your house or place of business and walk out with your stuff.
[/quote]

Well i'm glad you cleared that up, so the next time I catch some thief breaking into my tool shed i'll just shoot him in the back, much easier that way. He started the situation anyway.

[Chucktshoes]

[quote name='K191145' timestamp='1353980866' post='851090']

Well i'm glad you cleared that up, so the next time I catch some thief breaking into my tool shed i'll just shoot him in the back, much easier that way. He started the situation anyway.[/quote]
If only. :/ Sadly our laws do allow for use of lethal force for the protection of property. Texas knows how to roll.