Where would you shoot.......head or body

[chances R]

With cold weather, heavy coats, thick clothing, close quarters, I've debated whether it is appropriate to shoot an attacker in the head vs. the body. In general the head shot is regarded as a failure to stop. With the previous factors, and also consider small caliber, do you think there is more legal risk just going for the head shot initially?

[Guest Razz]

Mozambique Drill, son!

Kidding. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[mikegideon]

Head shots are easier said than done when it gets real. Center mass is always best.

[TMF]

I can promise you that if you have to shoot in self defense you won't be taking the time to pick where you shoot.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='Razz' timestamp='1353252205' post='847616']
Mozambique Drill, son!

Kidding. I have no idea what I'm talking about.
[/quote]

Two to the chest, and one to the left earlobe

[DaveTN]

My experience tells me you will draw and fire without thinking about your equipment and you will fire where and how you have trained; chances are you will not have time to do anything else. My training was firing into center body mass without using sights. If you think you will have time to get a sight picture or make a head shot; train that way. If I were a “Shot placement guy” I would be dead.

[gun sane]

Heavy coats and thick shirts are not made of Kevlar. Just get'r done.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='chances R' timestamp='1353252027' post='847610']
Do you think there is more legal risk just going for the head shot initially?
[/quote]
The only legal risk you have is if you are not justified in shooting.

[Guest KCampbell]

I consider myself a decent shot.But head shots even when training take a lot of concentration for me.I can only imagine what that would be like when things are going 200 miles an hour in the real world.Clint Smith(Thunder Ranch)says if you are excellent in training you can expect to be at best mediocre in a real situation.He would know better than me.Any miss is a possible liability

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2 Edited November 18, 2012 by KCampbell

[mikegideon]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1353255088' post='847647']
The only legal risk you have is if you are not justified in shooting.
[/quote]

... and the fact that you'll probably miss, so the bullet is going to hit something else with full force.

[Guest nysos]

Most of the issues with heavy clothing is certain materials clogging hollowpoints so that they don't expand. Some say penetration will be an issue, but I don't think anybody in TN is going to be bundled up with so many layers of clothing that it would be an issue - our winters just aren't that cold compared to some places. Just concentrate on good shot placement on the chest, even if for some reason it doesn't penetrate that energy has to go somewhere and it is going to hurt like hell.

[TrickyNicky]

If your that worried about under penetration due to heavy clothes or jackets switch to another caliber. I know many shooters not one of whom would try taking a headshot on a moving combative target unless absolutely positively neccasery. Especially in any kind of scenario in which a miss on the target equals a potential hit on an innocent bystander.

I read a lot about the whole two to the chest one to the head and think that's a crap load of crap as well personaly. There may be one or two instances in which that may be the correct thing to do but it's so highly unlikely I won't train to ingrain it into my head. If they don't drop after two center mass shots we'll see what three or four does to em. If anything I'm probably more likely to try shooting lower than higher, the hips make a much better target than the head and I have a hard time picturing someone continuing any kind of threatening advance with a shattered hip.

[chances R]

The question is more for a legal discussion, you know, excessive force vs. stop the attack. I have had considerable training from the holster for head box shots. The majority of my shots with IDPA will also be head shots. Just wanted to see what the general feeling was.

[lshel]

All my training and practice has been center mass. Biggest target area when under stressful situation. Head shot only when they keep coming.

[Caster]

Center mass as they say. The torso does not move wildly and is the largest target. You are responsible for that bullet when it leaves the barrel. Setting the threat aside, do you want it to pass through or by the head and hit a bystander? The center of the body has the greatest chance to stop the bullet.

Absolutely train the way you shoot, shoot the way you train and TRAIN OFTEN. I tend to shoot center and a touch low. a touch below the sternum. Reason being, when I follow up with two or three very rapid shots I tend climb and inch or two. Three shot in the torso;liver lung and heart....this guy will have to be on PCP to keep going. If I ever do have to use my weapon, I'm not going to shoot once and then check to see if he's okay. Shoot to stop the threat, that means he goes down. Edited November 18, 2012 by Caster

[mikegideon]

[quote name='chances R' timestamp='1353264588' post='847709']
The question is more for a legal discussion, you know, excessive force vs. stop the attack. I have had considerable training from the holster for head box shots. The majority of my shots with IDPA will also be head shots. Just wanted to see what the general feeling was.
[/quote]

I don't think it matters from a legal standpoint. Deadly force is deadly force. Again, the only legal issue is when you miss and hit an unintended target. The trick in IDPA is to get enough crack into the target that it's head will move around like a real thug.

[Guest pfries]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1353252352' post='847619']
Two to the chest, and one to the left earlobe
[/quote]

His left or mine...
I need to make sure I get it right the first time

[Guest Gen. Patton]

[quote name='chances R' timestamp='1353264588' post='847709']
The question is more for a legal discussion, you know, excessive force vs. stop the attack. I have had considerable training from the holster for head box shots. The majority of my shots with IDPA will also be head shots. Just wanted to see what the general feeling was.
[/quote]

Legally speaking a shot to the head, especially if it is the first and or only shot, leaves the door open for the D.A. to argue that your actions were out of anger or an intent to kill for retribution. That could be argued in any situation, but the head shot as a first shot or at all leaves the door open for that argument. If you're already in a situation where it may be difficult to prove your side of the story a head shot makes it that much harder to seem reasonable, uncalculating, and ultimately concerned with the safety of others (if applicable). Even aiming low can leave something for the D.A. to pick at especially if the victim survives and lies and says you shot them out of revenge or something. A good rule of thumb to go by IMO is that if it comes to me drawing my weapon it's as many shots center mass as needed to put them on their backs and me and my gun should be the last thing they see. If they live it's by accident, the good grace of the Lord, or medical innovation. But if I have anything to do with it they're gonna be one of those talking heads in a jar on Futurama should they survive lol! Edited November 18, 2012 by Gen. Patton

[mikegideon]

[quote name='pfries' timestamp='1353272352' post='847759']
His left or mine...
I need to make sure I get it right the first time
[/quote]

His left. Aim for the other eyeball and you'll be fine.

[DWARREN123]

[i]I believe in Center of Mass and as many rounds as it takes to stop the threat. [/i]

[S&WForty]

Center mass. Because real life isn't what we see in Hollywood, and heads are smaller and move faster than torsos.

Muscle memory is something else - if used. After I had gotten into pistols, I realized I wasn't merely "good." Good at what you ask? In the dark, I have walked up to my door and slid the key right into the lock. If it was a game of basketball, it would be "nothing but net." Thanks to learning about muscle memory in shooting, I realized that ability to nail the keyhole dead-on so often while approaching the door in my normal manner had to be muscle memory. I am not even "trying" for that perfection. It just happens. If ever put into a firing situation, I want every factor possible in my favor of hitting the perp and nothing else. Muscle memory aiming center mass for me.

[timcar86]

The first option should be center mass. Its the best and largest target. If the threat fails to stop, your next target is the pelvic region. Splitting the pelvic girdle will take away the threat's mobility and there are several large arteries in that area. If the threat still doesn't stop, your last option is the head. And when we're talking about the head we're really talking about an upside down triangle that goes from the eyes to the nose. That's it. The forehead is very hard and has been know to deflect bullets because of the slope. From the cheekbones down is also a poor choice because there are no vital targets in that area. So to sum up: 4 to 6 center mass, 4 to 6 pelvis and if you don't get compliance after that, you have to make a precise shot to the eyes/nose area. This all was from the class I took from Tiger McKee.

[daddyo]

Do people still wear coats? From what I've seen, at most people wear a hoodie or lightweight fleece. And most people seem either too lazy to put on warm clothing or they don't realize that it's cold outside, so heavy clothing shouldn't be too much of a factor if you find yourself in a SD situation.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1353326581' post='848080']
Do people still wear coats? From what I've seen, at most people wear a hoodie or lightweight fleece. And most people seem either too lazy to put on warm clothing or they don't realize that it's cold outside, so heavy clothing shouldn't be too much of a factor if you find yourself in a SD situation.
[/quote]

Yep, and a lot of times, there's just a single layer of plaid underwear. Not exactly center mass, but works for me

[TMF]

If between the sudden and steep adrenaline spike, combined with the challenge of hitting a target that is trying not to get hit whilst attempting to get a good sight picture as you instinctively flinch/duck/weave at whatever the assailant is trying to kill you with, you are able to accurately engage a small part of their body that is challenging for many on a good day with a stationary piece of paper...... well, more power to you.

Legally, I think any investigative officer/DA/jury member would chalk it up to a lucky shot when you describe it the way I did above.

Keep practicing your failure drills on your cardboard, but when it counts you're gonna put a lot of rounds in a very short period of time at the easiest piece of meat you can hit.