Forced to sign an arbitration agreement?

[Raoul]

So today my better half and I went to the local Toyota dealer to look for her a vehicle. We ran across a very nice lightly used 2006 4runner at what we felt was a good price.
We did the usual BS car sale dance and reached a price we could live with. After all the typical wait time they put you through we finally met with the finance guy. We're paying cash for the vehicle.
So we go through the paper work and this jackwagon pulls out an arbitration agreement and tells us they will not sell us
the vehicle unless we sign it.

I quit being my usual charming self and make a scene ranting about giving up my right to having due process. Finance guy goes to get his sales manager, who once again tells me I have to sign, and I again exhibit my charming side .

So tell me, is this normal? Not me...the arbitration agreement.

O and yes I did walk out.

[Guest Razz]

I'm no expert but good for you for walking out. Time and time again I see these popping up at every transaction.

[Sam1]

The lot tried to get my wife to sign one and her having the law background she started quizzing them on why it was necessary. After running in circles the salesman said it was a voluntary document and she bought the car without signing anything.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

This year was the first time I've seen them as well, guess they're using them to get the buyers to waive more of their rights. Edited November 18, 2012 by Sam1

[Raoul]

Be nice if some of the resident attorneys jumped in with a non binding opinion.

[Wingshooter]

Sounds all too familiar to me! I also walked out of a Toyota dealer in KY a few years ago when I wanted to buy a 4 runner, lol. It wasn't over an arbitration agreement for me, but the finance guy's tactics. We left there and went across the street and bought a jeep grand Cherokee.

I feel your pain. It's frustrating. Good for you for not signing that



posted from my phone Edited November 18, 2012 by Batman

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If they let you walk, sounds like implicit admission, "We fear losing a sale less than we fear the cost of a lawsuit." ???

[billyscott]

Ok. I'm ignorant. What is an arbitration agreement?

[Raoul]

[quote name='billyscott' timestamp='1353204359' post='847391']
Ok. I'm ignorant. What is an arbitration agreement?
[/quote]

It's a document that one signs that results in you giving up your right to a day in court over any possible dispute, negligent act or mistake that the dealership may do that causes harm to you , and you agree that if any act of this type occurs you will meet with a third party to work out an agreed upon settlement that is agreeable to both parties.

Sounds all kum ba yah doesn't it.

My problem is that is denies due process.

[leroy]

Flood damaged cars man!! They are tryin to get ya to walk around the "lemon law". My bet is that these cars are hurricane damaged or somethin close. They are afraid that there a good chance of a serious electronic or grounding problem that could show up pretty quick. Good for you not signing.

leroy

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Never heard of that being standard practice, although it is common for companies to use arbitration instead of
litigation, nowadays. I'm glad you didn't sign, Raoul. I wouldn't have, either.

I'm with Leroy. They may have had their fair share of bad cars sold and are trying to make the consumer pay
for their bad inventory by less litigation and more arbitration.

[Raoul]

[quote name='6.8 AR' timestamp='1353207454' post='847411']
Never heard of that being standard practice, although it is common for companies to use arbitration instead of
litigation, nowadays. I'm glad you didn't sign, Raoul. I wouldn't have, either.

I'm with Leroy. They may have had their fair share of bad cars sold and are trying to make the consumer pay
for their bad inventory by less litigation and more arbitration.
[/quote]

What I want to know, is since the AA isn't required for a transaction in TN, and since they refuse to sell one without a signed agreement, are they in violation of the law?

I'm pretty damned tired of my rights being trampled on.

[Caster]

I've never understood buying a car. I don't understand why I have to sign 50 documents for a damn car. I've paid cash for a few and just don't get it. If I pay you, why can't you give me the title, a bill of sale and handshake on the way out the door. Should take no more than 15 minutes TOPS. Edited November 18, 2012 by Caster

[thundersnow]

I guess they just want you to feel like it was hard to get so they're worth more. Yea Caster, I'm with ya... They shouldn't let the finance guys into the situation if it is just a cash deal.



[quote name='Caster' timestamp='1353207736' post='847413']I've never understood buying a car. I don't understand why I have to sign 50 documents for a damn car. [/quote]


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Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft (SIG) P6 /// Ruger Target 10/22 Edited November 18, 2012 by thundersnow

[Guest 6.8 AR]

[quote name='Raoul' timestamp='1353207670' post='847412']
What I want to know, is since the AA isn't required for a transaction in TN, and since they refuse to sell one without a signed agreement, are they in violation of the law?

I'm pretty damned tired of my rights being trampled on.
[/quote]
That one I don't know, Raoul. I doubt it if they make it known that the arbitration agreement is mandatory before you
look at a contract. I guess if they want to limit their sales to only the ones who agree to it, it may be okay. I imagine
they have had legal problems in the past. Check with the BBB, maybe?

[Mike.357]

Good on your for walking out. The dealer must have a helluva business going if they can afford to let cash deals walk away.

I have not dealt with a car dealer in fourteen years, I had about forgotten what a sickening experience it is.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

When I bought the wrangler 2 years ago from dallas dodge "long distance" it was smooth as silk. Them folk wanted to sell me a vehicle. Called em at 10 am saturday morning on the one I wanted, seed it on the internet. They drove it up and was sitting in my driveway by 5p the same day. Nothin but the usual papers, 3 year zero interest loan.

Now the year before I bought a honda little SUV for dad. He and stepmom have got real old and that particular honda happened to be the "best fit" for them getting into and out of the vehicle.

Anyway, cash on the barrel, less than 10,000 mile used "certified" vehicle with warranty. Not too bad a price. Went slick up to that point. So when I showed up to give him a check and drive it to dad's, the sales or finance manager gave us the hard-sell on a $1000+ extended warranty, and I said no thanks. So then he proceeded to argue with me about how bad I needed the extended warranty, and I pointed out that the thang already had a 24 month warranty. Then mentioned that consumer reports and other sources generally advise that extended warranties are hardly ever a good deal.

So I might as well have pooped in his wheaties. He was real pissed as we finished up the rest of the paperwork including a paper indicating that hell no I don't want to buy their extended warranty.

Dunno if his only profit was in the warranty or what, but won't buy anything else from that dealer.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Raoul' timestamp='1353201511' post='847369']So tell me, is this normal? Not me...the arbitration agreement.[/quote]

I'm glad you clarified the question in that you are asking if arbitration agreements are normal.

In my spare time, I counsel people having credit problems and in much of the lending world, companies are trying to force arbitration on people as a way to avoid court (both to save costs and because they often lose in court). Arbitration, is not a bad thing. However, many of the arbitration boards are beholding to the very finance companies and businesses they are making decisions about (can anyone say "conflict of interest??).

At the end of the day, I would suggest that these agreements don't mean much...if you WANT to take an issue to court you can take an issue to court. However, you did exactly the right thing by walking out...if a car dealer has enough problems that they feel they need you to sign an arbitration agreement; that tells me that this is a dealer you DON'T want to do business with.

[Patton]

[quote name='Mike.357' timestamp='1353208423' post='847421']
Good on your for walking out. The dealer must have a helluva business going if they can afford to let cash deals walk away.

[/quote]
Misconception here about cash deals being preferred car deal. As a F and I guy it went against my numbers on doing a cash deal. I made money and often more on the back end of a deal off the buy rate. Always make a dealer think you are financing the car until the very last minute. I would just about give away a car for a lose on the front end because I knew I could make it up on the back end. I once sold a Ford Contour for a 2500 loss but actually made 2500 on the rate/credit life/gap and extended warranty. I wouldn't have discounted the car if I thought the buyer was going to write me a check.

[oldmustangjunkie]

Patton is the following possible? My friend relayed doing this years ago:
He went in the dealership, played the 4 square deal to get the best trade in value, lowest monthly payment and set his payments to 72 months. After they were done with all the paperwork, he went to the cashier window, found out what his principal amount was and wrote a check for the full amount. I'm contemplating buying a GT500 in a year or so and want to minimize my overall investment.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='Raoul' timestamp='1353207670' post='847412']
I'm pretty damned tired of my rights being trampled on.
[/quote]
You both had a right to stop the transaction at any time. You exercised your rights.

I wouldn’t have signed it either; but I wouldn’t see it as someone trampling on my rights.
------------------------------------
EDIT: never mind on the last part, just saw its used. Edited November 18, 2012 by DaveTN

[Guest tommy62]

I worked as an F&I manager for several years. There's something in the woodpile somewhere. Not a usual practice. I have sold lemon law buybaacks and storm damaged vehicles and this has to be disclosed. It is federal law. They know something that is not common knowledge or this is a ploy to sell a warranty. It would not surprise me especially if this is a part of Southeast Toyota or JM&A store. They are not dealerships, they are stealerships.

[Patton]

[quote name='oldmustangjunkie' timestamp='1353257340' post='847667']
Patton is the following possible? My friend relayed doing this years ago:
He went in the dealership, played the 4 square deal to get the best trade in value, lowest monthly payment and set his payments to 72 months. After they were done with all the paperwork, he went to the cashier window, found out what his principal amount was and wrote a check for the full amount. I'm contemplating buying a GT500 in a year or so and want to minimize my overall investment.
[/quote]
You might save a little, but normally on that odd of a car the price is normally less negotionable unless its used. I tell people in short the best way to get a good deal is to walk into a dealer and make them think you are financing the full amount and that you don't have a trade. Negotiate over the next few days/week (never buy on the first visit) and then after they are bottom dollar say you know I was going to sell my car but what would you give for it?(this way you are talking real world trade value) I actually recommend not trading but whatever.
I used to think the best time to buy was the week after Christmas but I don't think that much anymore. The week before/following a presidential election is the slowest at dealerships and they really want to sell a car. One of my friends that makes +75k a year didn't sell a car at a all around the elections. Some of my other friends took vacations because they knew it would be a wash. The last week of the month and before closing time can be a great time to close a deal. I've made a sweet deal at opening on a Saturday just to get the day started right wit hopes of creating a huge day to though.
A neat but dirty trick is after you have talked the manager down as low as you think it can go pull your salesman to the side and say for every $500 you save me from here on out I'll give you $250 upon delivery. Most salesman won't accept it but if it's a guy that doesn't really care if he got caught he will go tell his manager to knock the price down another 1k if it's possible so you don't walk. Sounds weird but it has worked before. Most salesman just care about making money that day and assume they will be somewhere else next week.
Good luck. Edited November 19, 2012 by Patton

[Randall53]

Flood damaged cars man!! They are tryin to get ya to walk around the "lemon law". My bet is that these cars are hurricane damaged or somethin close. They are afraid that there a good chance of a serious electronic or grounding problem that could show up pretty quick. Good for you not signing.

leroy

BINGO.....check this out:
http://www.weather.com/news/hurricane-sandy-cars-20121231

Amazing..... Edited January 21, 2013 by Randall53

[LagerHead]

What I want to know, is since the AA isn't required for a transaction in TN, and since they refuse to sell one without a signed agreement, are they in violation of the law?

I'm pretty damned tired of my rights being trampled on.

 

I don't think this would be a violation of the law. They are a private business and are not obligated to sell you anything. Likewise you are not obligate to buy anything from them. 

[LawVol]

arbitration agreements are a good way to avoid bad publicity; no complaints filed with the local court clerk.  Arbitration can be a more efficient way to resolve a dispute, but the agreements often specify a venue that is very inconvenient for the consumer.  

 

Kudos to you for actually reading before signing.