HCP vs Concealed Weapons Permit. Thoughts?

[Mykltn]

I am not sure if this subject has been touched on before but after reading the laws for Florida and Kentucy on their Concealed Weapons Permits I was wonding if it wouldn't be better to have something similar in place of Tennessee's HCP law. I don't ever think I would open carry and the thought of being able to carry different self defence weapons appeals to me greatly. I was also wonding what the thoughts of other TGOers would be on TN adopting a simiar law allowing the carry of switchblades, batons, brass knuckes and the like would be. I welcome oppinions for and againts and please give reasons supporting your opinion. Thanks

[maroonandwhite]

I would just rather be able to carry my gun everywhere CC or OC. If a local business can post to not allow weapons/guns then I would think they could include batons, brass knuckles, etc. in that. Just my opinion but I would rather have less laws than more. Edited November 16, 2012 by maroonandwhite

[Guest dfsixstring]

I think less laws are better. Frankly, I hate that I have to have a "permit" to exercise my Constitutional rights. The ability to open carry doesn't appeal to me either - but we shouldn't exchange that for yet another law taking away other rights.


Dfsixstring
SR9c
LCP
RST4S

[Oh Shoot]

Yes, I'm all for repealing laws over all, although the "parking lot" thing might require its own statute.

Knife and "club" prohibitions need to be repealed for sure.

Hell, even the existing 4" blade limit is not preempted like the firearms statutes, so local government can restrict them even further.

- OS Edited November 16, 2012 by OhShoot

[RobertNashville]

If you mean you want to discontinue the HCP process completely or significantly, I would be very much against it as our HCP allows us the benefit of carrying in other states.

What I would like to see is improvements in the HCP process and more benefits for those who go through the process while moving toward "Constitutional Carry" for legal Tennessee residents who don't want to go through the HCP process.

No HCP required for carry to anyone who can otherwise legally own a firearm or to carry a firearm inside of their vehicle.

HCP process - improved in that, as it is now with a TICS denial when purchasing a firearm from an FFL, the burden of proof is on the State to prove you do not meet the requirements needed to obtain an HCP (as of now, if they find anything that "might" preclude you obtaining they deny to issue and it's then up to you to prove you are actually eligible).

HCP, once issued, precludes the need for a background every time you purchase a firearm from an FFL (would probably require an annual review of your records by TBI but I think that can be managed since it's almost 100% just a computer check of records anyway).

Yes, I think we need a discussion about weapons other than firearms as our current laws don't make a lot of sense to me!

I could think of other but I think the above is a good start.

[10-Ring]

Nope, I couldn't get behind this for a number of reasons. First being that I often OC, just because you choose not to exercise your right to do so does not mean that you should throw that right away for people that choose to exercise it. Secondly in concealed carry states if you print you can be charged with brandishing and other related charges. If you print in Tennessee it is a non issue. My gun does everything in respect to self defense as brass knuckles (if you have ever actually used brass knuckles you would know that they are not worth the trouble as they can break your hand if you actually use them.), switchblades, or a club. I have no desire to carry any more gear than necessary and certainly don't want to trade my pistol for any of these items.

Now if the law were changed to say a Weapons Carry Permit to where you could carry any weapon that you wanted concealed or open then fine, but I will not voluntarily trade my right to OC for a billy bat.

[DaveTN]

If we are going to copy another state lets copy one that recognizes a right to bear arms. Its a short list of only four states; Kentucky nor Florida are on it.

[S&WForty]

[quote name='10-Ring' timestamp='1353091003' post='846691']
Secondly in concealed carry states if you print you can be charged with brandishing and other related charges. If you print in Tennessee it is a non issue.[/quote]

Is there any truth in the statement that TN allows OC with the HCP to eliminate the possibility of false brandishing claims? It seems what we have is worth being thankful for, but I wish we had more leeway like that special permit now issued in MS. (if I've read correctly, they jump through the same hoops for their special permit as we do for our regular permit - grrrr)

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='10-Ring' timestamp='1353091003' post='846691']...First being that I often OC, just because you choose not to exercise your right to do so does not mean that you should throw that right away for people that choose to exercise it. Secondly in concealed carry states if you print you can be charged with brandishing and other related charges.[/quote]
I don't know for certain as I wasn't here when the initial HCP laws were passed but I suspect that it's possible and maybe even likely that the primary reason TN allows "open carry" is to prevent people being charged with a crime just because they "print" or inadvertently show their firearm.

I've suspected for a long time that many who carry openly have taken it beyond what was intended with the HCP laws and that, eventually, we'll see a backlash against any open carry at all.

That's assuming Obama doesn't outlaw all firearms of course.

[Guest 270win]

I would swap open carry for concealed carry only and be able to carry legally anywhere I want just like off duty LEO's in TN. Of course some states like Missouri and Alabama, you just about can carry where off duty LEO's carry.

[Mykltn]

As stated, I would not choose to open carry but I do not have anything against those that do. I just find it funny that carrying a stick to ward off dogs constitutes a club and can ge considered "for the perpose of going armed" and therefor ilegal. I also believe the word "Arms" should mean any and all weapons that can be used for self defense. As for the suggestion that an OC right is a defense against brandishing a weapon if you are "printing". The carry laws in both TN and FL do not make it legal to carry a firearm, they only act as a defense for breaking the law. I know it's semantics but it is the play of words that make or break our rights.

[LagerHead]

[quote name='maroonandwhite' timestamp='1353085703' post='846621']
I would just rather be able to carry my gun everywhere CC or OC. If a local business can post to not allow weapons/guns then I would think they could include batons, brass knuckles, etc. in that. Just my opinion but I would rather have less laws than more.
[/quote]

Yep. Ask the government to exercise a Constitutional right, or ask the government to exercise a Constitutional right. Not a whole lot of difference to me.

[Smith]

[quote name='S&WForty' timestamp='1353091495' post='846707']
Is there any truth in the statement that TN allows OC with the HCP to eliminate the possibility of false brandishing claims? It seems what we have is worth being thankful for, but I wish we had more leeway like that special permit now issued in MS. (if I've read correctly, they jump through the same hoops for their special permit as we do for our regular permit - grrrr)
[/quote]

IIRC Yes. There was a case where a person was charged for exposing a previously concealed firearm and the legislature responded by taking the concealed provision out.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='LagerHead' timestamp='1353095606' post='846753']
Yep. Ask the government to exercise a Constitutional right, or ask the government to exercise a Constitutional right. Not a whole lot of difference to me.
[/quote]The reality is that we must do exactly that. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is and it has been that way in Tennessee for a very long time and it's OUR FAULT and the fault of everyone who has gone before us and allowed the legislature to take a "right" and turn in into a privilege through the passage of laws that should never have been proposed; should never have passed; should never have become law and should have been overturned by the state supreme court.

[Guest 270win]

I also think open carry should be permit free and concealing should require a license. If you want to conceal and have a license, then you can carry anywhere you want. Of course a provision should be that an accidental brief exposure should not cause a problem.

[10-Ring]

[quote name='Mykltn' timestamp='1353094337' post='846733']
As stated, I would not choose to open carry but I do not have anything against those that do. I just find it funny that carrying a stick to ward off dogs constitutes a club and can ge considered "for the perpose of going armed" and therefor ilegal. I also believe the word "Arms" should mean any and all weapons that can be used for self defense. As for the suggestion that an OC right is a defense against brandishing a weapon if you are "printing". The carry laws in both TN and FL do not make it legal to carry a firearm, they only act as a defense for breaking the law. I know it's semantics but it is the play of words that make or break our rights.
[/quote]

It would be wise to not carry a stick to fend off dogs and whatnot but to instead carry a stick to assist your stride. Tennessee law provides protection for someone who is carrying a stick to aid their walking if said stick is used in a defensive manner. This way you still get your stick without stirring the pot and letting the politicians have more say so about what and how you can carry period. I would bet you would be very hard pressed to find a single legitimate case of anyone being prosecuted for carrying a walking stick. I see people carrying golf clubs and baseball bats while walking on a regular basis. Sorry if I'm coming off as rough I just get defensive when there is talk of taking away any of my rights for any reason and I really feel like you are picking a bone concerning carrying a walking stick.

[strickj]

What's the logic behind removing open carrying in lieu of carrying a knife?

If you want to mimic another state's carry process, look at GA's. It's what TN law makers do. Carry in bars and parks were the last laws TN passed after a years test in GA.
GA is very similar to TN in terms of carry but much less restrictive.
No criminal offense for carrying past a sign.
Can carry any weapon with a permit, including loaded rifles and blades over four inches.
Can carry in vehicles without a permit.
Permits are issued instantly without the steep tax for application and education.
Etc.

Edited November 16, 2012 by strickj

[Q-tip]

Another good point about GA is that carrying in itself is not RAS for LEO to check your permit.

[Mykltn]

[quote name='10-Ring' timestamp='1353103569' post='846832']
It would be wise to not carry a stick to fend off dogs and whatnot but to instead carry a stick to assist your stride. Tennessee law provides protection for someone who is carrying a stick to aid their walking if said stick is used in a defensive manner. This way you still get your stick without stirring the pot and letting the politicians have more say so about what and how you can carry period. I would bet you would be very hard pressed to find a single legitimate case of anyone being prosecuted for carrying a walking stick. I see people carrying golf clubs and baseball bats while walking on a regular basis. Sorry if I'm coming off as rough I just get defensive when there is talk of taking away any of my rights for any reason and I really feel like you are picking a bone concerning carrying a walking stick.
[/quote]
What are you talking about? How am I picking a bone about carrying a walking stick? No one is talking about taking away any of your rights. The question asked was opinions concerning HCP vs Concealed weapons permits. I don't have the ability to take away your rights so chill out. As far as the stick, if you read my first post you will see I am in favor of being able to carry a stick. I am in favor of being able to carry any weapon you think is best for defending yourself. If open carry is the main concern then lets rephrase the question of HCP with WCP (weapons carry permit). Maybe that way we can get some sanity in the responses. Edited November 17, 2012 by Mykltn

[Mykltn]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1353106091' post='846856']
What's the logic behind removing open carrying in lieu of carrying a knife?
[/quote]
Well, carrying a concealed weapon (be it a knife, stick, gun, blackjack or whatever) is not going to cause the manager of the waffle house I am eating in to ask me to leave like the gentleman sitting next to me was when another customer complained about the XD strapped to his side. Although the waffle house was not posted the manager still had the right to deny him service after the complaint was made. I on the other hand was able to finish my eggs in peace while still having my S&W Bodyguard covered by my outer shirt. My question to you would be what is the point in letting people know you have a weapon? I carry not because I feel the need to excersise my 2A right, I carry to protect my family and, God forbid, I ever have to use a gun for defense, I prefer the BG hear it before he sees it.

Now my intent was not to deny others open carry, for me it is not that big a deal. For others it seems to be. Thats fine, lets rephrase the question. What are the opinions of modifying the current HCP law to something like a WCP (weapons carry permit) law?

Edited November 17, 2012 by Mykltn

[Mykltn]

[quote name='Tactical11' timestamp='1353132844' post='847059']
Stupid talk to text smartphone!!! Sorry guys hope you can decipher.


WHERE THE HECK DID TATERS,COME IN? I meant taser! Lol
[/quote]
I understood you and agree. Constitutional carry is a nice concept but I prefer knowing that some training has been given and basic qualifications have been met. I am glad to know that there is someone else out there that see the merit in other forms of defensive weapons.

[TMF]

...think of the children....

[DaveTN]

Tennessee law doesn’t need to be modified; it needs to be overhauled. I can carry a gun anywhere that isn’t posted. I’m okay with paying for that and acknowledging it as a privilege and not a right.

The next logical step is for the state to recognize the 2nd amendment in full as an individual right for all citizens. Let’s quit messing around with all this bickering and become the 5th state on a very short list that recognizes not only your right to “Keep” arms, but your right to “Bear” them as well.

Then you could argue that your rights trump the rights of property owners as far as carry. I don’t think you would win that argument, but right now you have no chance of winning it.

I never was real big on “baby steps” or dancing around the issue. Go for it all.

[TMF]

[quote name='Tactical11' timestamp='1353159289' post='847124']Haha all I was saying is I dont want my son to be someone's back stop justbecause they're a lousy shot[/quote]

And the HCP range test is a vetting process for that? I don't think so.... not unless we're talking about a blind person applying for their HCP.

[TMF]

Even if we had Constitutional carry, and everyone was packing without having to take a test or qualify, I would still be more worried about my son being killed by a texting and driving soccer mom than a stray round from a citizen defending themselves. I dunno, it seems to work in Vermont. Haven't heard about "blood in the streets" stories there.