Secession petition

[Guest fauklin]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354402412' post='853528']
Again, apples and tomatoes. "Symbolically" telling your boss that you quit will only change your employment status.




Yes, you proved your love for this country.
A lot of people in this thread are using their military career as justification for signing the petition and to show their patriotism.
One has no baring on the other.

Timothy McVeigh was all of the above and he too thought that he was a patriot. He was never a patriot.

I appreciate your service a great deal and would never try to discredit that. I'm simply pointing out that a military career means nothing in terms of one's patriotism as is being used in this thread to justify this petition.

There are at least two posters that are former or current military and are outspoken against the petition. If a military career does matter, I guess that makes it about even, eh.




You exercised your right to petition the government, yes. But you asked for succession. You said that you no longer choose to be a US citizen. IMO, you should be awarded what you specifically asked for.

Meanwhile, I'll remain a TN resident and a proud US citizen and will continue to have the constitutional protections that you gave up.[/quote]
The constitution is what the petition is about. The federal government ignores it whenever it doesn't suit them. You're fooling yourself to think the rights of one common man means anything to them.

Deporting secessionists would only rally people to their cause. I signed it as I think the states could do better on our own, and because it shouldn't take a war to undo something done by vote. Peaceful secession should be an option.

Bionic Post

[Guest fauklin]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354402457' post='853529']
Some of us are old enough to have lived a bit of history.

If I read my history books right, we've had two civil wars on our soil; one fighting our brothers and countrymen in the American Revolutionary war and the second fighting our brothers and sons and fathers during the American Civil war of the 1860s...both were pretty bloody and messy affairs and there are a number of graveyards around Tennessee to show that. Those two should have been lesson enough but even if not, I'm pretty sure that things aren't so bad that we need another lesson.[/quote]
Not yet...

Bionic Post

[Guest Lester Weevils]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354402457' post='853529']
If I read my history books right, we've had two civil wars on our soil; one fighting our brothers and countrymen in the American Revolutionary war and the second fighting our brothers and sons and fathers during the American Civil war of the 1860s...both were pretty bloody and messy affairs and there are a number of graveyards around Tennessee to show that. Those two should have been lesson enough but even if not, I'm pretty sure that things aren't so bad that we need another lesson.
[/quote]

Just playing the old debbils counselor, many people in those graves spread around the country came from such as Ohio, NY, NJ. If people are capable of reading and learning from history, the lesson might be taken to heart by all sides. That is why I suspect when balkanization begins to increasingly look like a good idea to more and more folk across the nation, it will be a relatively amicable divorce. Few on either side would see the logic of risking their skins fighting a "lost cause". Good riddance, don't let the screen door hit you on yer way out. There are lots of blue state liberals that would be just as glad do be rid of the south and midwest, as there are red staters who would be glad to be rid of the coasts. Edited December 2, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Also, alternate looks at possible settlements of property in an "amicable divorce". Am not advocating such, merely considering possibilities.

If TVA states seceeded, it wouldn't be like all the other states own TVA and the TVA states don't have any ownership. It would be every state with an "equal stake in all assets". There would be various alternate definitions of what an equal stake would be, but it would be figure-outable.

So if non-TVA states wanted to get on their high horse about the dams, generating stations and reactors, it could be solved a couple of ways--

1-- We'll keep federal assets in our boundaries and ya'll keep federal assets in your boundaries. Simple with low odds of future arguments about it.
2-- Ya'll keep your stake in TVA, and we'll keep our stake in upper Mississippi river works, Hoover Dam, and all those oil and mineral resources in western federal land. In fact, we're immediately sending engineering concerns to the western federal lands to drill and mine the share that still belongs to us!

Edited December 2, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[strickj]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354411573' post='853587']
I disagree with your whole premise. Those that serve are not fair weather patriots! They have pledged their lives and their honor.and their fortunes for their country and they backed it up.We have sweated, worked , and bled for our country! To put some been nowhere, done nothing ,individual with a computer and an attitude in the same class is an insult to all of us who have served.Just what have you done sir, other than run your mouth off.to support your country?What have you sacrificed? Before you question our patriotism,which is backed up with acts,deeds , and sacrifice perhaps you should do something to justify your own.
[/quote]
Again, not trying to discredit anyone for their service. I am not questioning anyone's patriotism for serving.
Yes, you are a patriot for risking your life for my freedoms. I am thankful for that.
No, signing a petition to leave the US and using your previous military service as justification does not make you a patriot.

For me; I can not serve for medical reasons. Thanks for talking down to me and making me feel like ####e though. I'll go crawl back in my hole now Edited December 2, 2012 by strickj

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Lester Weevils' timestamp='1354413176' post='853613']
Just playing the old debbils counselor, many people in those graves spread around the country came from such as Ohio, NY, NJ. If people are capable of reading and learning from history, the lesson might be taken to heart by all sides. That is why I suspect when balkanization begins to increasingly look like a good idea to more and more folk across the nation, it will be a relatively amicable divorce. Few on either side would see the logic of risking their skins fighting a "lost cause". Good riddance, don't let the screen door hit you on yer way out. There are lots of blue state liberals that would be just as glad do be rid of the south and midwest, as there are red staters who would be glad to be rid of the coasts.[/quote]

Respectfully; if you think this or any other president is going to let states leave the union after 200+ years and after already having fought one war to keep them together than I'd like to try some of whatever you are taking. You also seem to forget that most of the "red" states; especially those with significant populations and resources aren't really all that "red" so "leaving" the union seems problematic at best even if it happened.

This isn't a marriage where you can simply divorce your spouse; the only chance this country has for freedom is to put it on a path back toward the Constitution and that will not and cannot be done with secession or guns...if we can't put it back on the right path then the U.S. is simply over. That's assuming, of course, that we don't have a complete economic collapse which will end the country as we know it forever no matter what else anyone does.

To be blunt; if I had the means I would already be moving out of the country...that's how bad I think thinks are going to get.

By the way, many of those graves [u]are[/u] from places like Ohio; one or two belong to my ancestors who fought for the Union; I believe their cause was just and I believe keeping the United States together still is a just cause.

Edited December 2, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest fauklin]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354415370' post='853639']
To be blunt; if I had the means I would already be moving out of the country...that's how bad I think thinks are going to get.[/quote]

I believe it will be bad also. Sad part is that, for now, there is still more freedom here than any other countries.
Bionic Post Edited December 2, 2012 by fauklin

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='fauklin' timestamp='1354416162' post='853648']
I believe it will be bad also. Sad part is that, for now, there is still more freedom here than any other countries.
Bionic Post[/quote]With the kind of means I'm speaking of, I think I'd be okay.

[Guest fauklin]

I understand.

Bionic Post

[Guest cardcutter]

. Edited December 2, 2012 by cardcutter

[gregintenn]

What are these states going to do if the Obama admin responds to these petitions by saying "Don't let the door hit you in the rear!". Texas might have an outside shot of making it independantly, if they can successfully defend an occupation effort from Mexico. The other states are too dependant, and would starve out in short order.

Let's pretend Tennessee becomes it's own sovereign country. Then what? We are landlocked. Where are we going to get fuel, and where's it gonna come from? What if China decides to occupy us? There are millions of reasons this wouldn't fly. Edited December 2, 2012 by gregintenn

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I saw someone use the word "deport" somewhere back there. Where would you be deported to, if you are a natural
born American citizen? Just messin around.

That part about the security clearance is probably enough to get it pulled. Don't know, but I imagine if it ever crossed
a line that would happen. Since one swears his or her life to the service of their country, I would expect it. I figured
that would be cut and dry. Play by the rules in which you dance to. If a particular dance has a rule against something
you should be obliged to dance elsewhere. What happened to that Marine on Facebook? I never heard more on that.

[QuietDan]

[quote name='gregintenn' timestamp='1354467529' post='853799']
Let's pretend Tennessee becomes it's own sovereign country. Then what? We are landlocked. Where are we going to get fuel, and where's it gonna come from?
[/quote]

Not because I believe in the whole secession issue, but purely to stir the pot:

If Tennessee seceded, independent of the surrounding states, the Tennessee Navy would become important, maintaining freedom of navigation on the Mississippi River. That means Memphis remains an important riverport, as well as Clarksville and Nashville. Of course, we'd still have to worry about Vicksburg, and New Orleans . . .

The Confederacy of 1861-1865 had a chance until Nashville fell. It started going downhill from there.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='gregintenn' timestamp='1354467529' post='853799']
There are millions of reasons this wouldn't fly.
[/quote]

Exactly. The biggest reason being neither the people of Tennessee nor any other state are going to go for it. These are just people that are upset with what happened. I’m upset also, but I know why it happened; it’s what the people that voted wanted.

There is no going back. We aren’t our founding founders and they were never so arrogant they expected us to be. They gave us a base to work from and told us to try to not mess it up. They gave us a way to handle what we perceive as violations of the Constitution and that is the way they are handled today.

We survived a Civil war, two World Wars, nuclear bombs, jet aircraft, ballistic submarines, and computers. Those things all change how we operate.

I don’t give a rolling rip down a razor blade what Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin had to say about National Security; we do what we have to do. We are operating under a different set of circumstances than they were.

We have ways to fix these problems. But signing a secession petition is like a little kid whining when they don’t get their way. Put your shoes on and go home and cry; but stay out of the way of those that are trying to actually do something fix the problem.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='QuietDan' timestamp='1354468898' post='853808']
Not because I believe in the whole secession issue, but purely to stir the pot:

If Tennessee seceded, independent of the surrounding states, the Tennessee Navy would become important, maintaining freedom of navigation on the Mississippi River. That means Memphis remains an important riverport, as well as Clarksville and Nashville. Of course, we'd still have to worry about Vicksburg, and New Orleans . . .

The Confederacy of 1861-1865 had a chance until Nashville fell. It started going downhill from there.
[/quote]
Okay, I'll play also. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img]

UPS, FedEx, and the USPS stop deliveries and moves out. All Federal Offices close and all Federal support stops.

Production at all major manufacturing facilities comes to a halt. Nissan, Volkswagen, Bridgestone, Vought Aircraft, GM Spring Hill, just to name a few of the hundreds.

HCA shuts down and the County Music Industry moves to LA or New York.

The U.S. Department of Energy shuts down Oak Ridge.

TVA has a big problem. I suspect the FEDS will take them over and call it National Security.

Oh and by the way, what makes you think you are going to have anything to say about travel on the Mississippi, and who is paying for the Navy you are talking about?

Of course if you own your land outright, don’t need a job, and you picture yourself living off your land; none of this matters.

[QuietDan]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354472458' post='853829']
Okay, I'll play also. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img]

UPS, FedEx, and the USPS stop deliveries and moves out. All Federal Offices close and all Federal support stops.

Production at all major manufacturing facilities comes to a halt. Nissan, Volkswagen, Bridgestone, Vought Aircraft, GM Spring Hill, just to name a few of the hundreds.

HCA shuts down and the County Music Industry moves to LA or New York.

The U.S. Department of Energy shuts down Oak Ridge.

TVA has a big problem. I suspect the FEDS will take them over and call it National Security.

Oh and by the way, what makes you think you are going to have anything to say about travel on the Mississippi, and who is paying for the Navy you are talking about?

Of course if you own your land outright, don’t need a job, and you picture yourself living off your land; none of this matters.
[/quote]

It kinda didn't work out 150 years ago, and I don't see it working out now, for many of the reasons you cite.

I'm thinking a Tenth Amendment reassertion of State Sovereignty is more apt to work out, and the repeal of the U.S. Constitution's Amendment establishing the Income Tax, a direct tax on citizens, is the way to proceed.

[seez52]

[quote name='QuietDan' timestamp='1354472716' post='853831']


I'm thinking a Tenth Amendment reassertion of State Sovereignty is more apt to work out,
[/quote]


I'm all for that. It's the forgotten check in our check and balance system. But does it really have any teeth without the possibility of consequences when a state declares a law unconstitutional and the feds push the matter? What's the state going to do?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

How is the fed going to take action against a state, other than holding back money? Send troops in?
Nullification can work if ever tried. I wonder how many states it would take to assert before the feds
would get the message? No teeth until states step up to the plate.

[DaveTN]

The FED wouldn’t need to take action or do anything; other than sadly watch a state commit economic suicide. Then we would all have to bear the burden of cleaning up the mess. Luckily you can’t get that many fools in one state. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img]

[mcurrier]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354484174' post='853892'] Luckily you can’t get that many fools in one state. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/quote]I don't know, Kalifornia, ILL and New Yuck seen to had success in that area.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='mcurrier' timestamp='1354485776' post='853910']
I don't know, Kalifornia, ILL and New Yuck seen to had success in that area.
[/quote]
Those three states make up about 20% of the manufacturing in this country. Be careful about splitting from them. Those who cannot remember the past are destine to repeat it.

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354365278' post='853311']
Who takes up arms first is irrelevant. There will be no bloodless secession.

Signing a petition is pointless especially one that is only symbolic. If people really want to effect change that can happen when they get their hands dirty and get involved in the process - get out from behind their keyboards and their TVs and go to meeting or run for office or work for a candidate. If they think civil disobedience is the way to go then they actually need to engage in some.

This "petition" isn't worth the electrons it takes to generate it.
[/quote]

+ 1,000,000

This is exactly what I have said in several of the threads regarding the election since November. If everyone who is sore at the outcome of this election had done more than just vote maybe the outcome would have been different. It doesn't cost any money to help. Anyone can volunteer or talk to anyone who will listen. Even putting a sign in the yard could have made a difference.

If people want to change the system they have to do it from within. And if you secede you are no longer within.

Dolomite

[mcurrier]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354486299' post='853915']
Those three states make up about 20% of the manufacturing in this country. Be careful about splitting from them. Those who cannot remember the past are destine to repeat it.
[/quote]As I recall, we made tanks, planes and bombs right here in TN during WWII. I believe we still make cars here. A lot of cars. I think we make more cars these days than Detroit-istan now makes.

[mcurrier]

[quote name='Dolomite_supafly' timestamp='1354487660' post='853921']
+ 1,000,000

This is exactly what I have said in several of the threads regarding the election since November. If everyone who is sore at the outcome of this election had done more than just vote maybe the outcome would have been different. It doesn't cost any money to help. Anyone can volunteer or talk to anyone who will listen. Even putting a sign in the yard could have made a difference.

If people want to change the system they have to do it from within. And if you secede you are no longer within.

Dolomite
[/quote]If you think all of this is about people being "sore", it's not, not by far. People have witnessed four years of this country moving in a socialist direction and extreme (borderline?) tyrrany. Socialism literally bought itself at least four more years and we are now on the express train. The permanent tipping point has always been said to be 51%. We are there. THAT is what people are concerned about. Not about being "sore" losers. If 0bungo had lost, you can't even imagine what sore losers would have looked like. That is the only saving grace to 0bungo "winning", the losing side this time is the peaceful, mature, law-abiding adult side.

[seez52]

[quote name='6.8 AR' timestamp='1354480964' post='853874']
How is the fed going to take action against a state, other than holding back money? Send troops in?
Nullification can work if ever tried. I wonder how many states it would take to assert before the feds
would get the message? No teeth until states step up to the plate.
[/quote]

You are right. Nullification is the rightful remedy. The states' duty is to interpose itself between the citizens of the state and the Fed govt when it goes beyond its constitutionally limited powers.

The states ability, their duty to interpose, is one pay grade above even the SCOTUS.

If several states would grow a pair many of the issues that have brought these petitions would go away. States were never intended to be simple subdivisions of a larger entity, but rather powerful protectors of our individual rights.