Secession petition

[tnhawk]

[quote name='Batman' timestamp='1352870914' post='845314']
Instead of a bunch of states seceeding, can we just put out DC, CA and a couple of other liberal states? Seems easier since we like the Constitution and all.
[/quote]
Add IL and NY to the list.

[seez52]

All we want to do is go in peace and form a separate county of sovereign states and start over. We would be glad to develop treaties, trade policies, send ambassadors even share some of our natural resources with our former motherland, but the freedom and liberty of our citizens is not negotiable.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='seez52' timestamp='1354375636' post='853358']
All we want to do is go in peace and form a separate county of sovereign states and start over. We would be glad to develop treaties, trade policies, send ambassadors even share some of our natural resources with our former motherland, but the freedom and liberty of our citizens is not negotiable.
[/quote]
Who is “We”, where are you going, and what “natural resources” do you have?

I’m sure the idea of simply bailing out and starting over is attractive to a lot of people; but it doesn’t fix the problems.

[Guest cardcutter]

Timber ,Coal, and natural gas just from Tn.
However ,going down this hypothetical path, It would not be just one state , isolated and alone.
It would have to be a coalition of states with treaties of commerce and mutual defense.
If it divides along the lines of the red/blue state maps, then most of the natural resources of the US would go to this new coalition. A large part of the manufacturing and agricultural capabilities would go there as well.
The North East, Pacific coast, and upper Ohio river Valley could hardley support themselves if that were withdrawn from them.
They would have to fight for control of this.There would be another civil war.

Now back to the present.
For secession to come about there would have to be a groundswell of support for it.One large enough for the various state legislatures to take it up. It would have to be voted on,passed by both houses, and signed by the Govenor of each of the states.
Some sort of convention and or assembly of delegates would have to come together and form this new coalition. Then a constitution would have to be written and voted on and national offices elected.
Somehow I just don't see this looming on the horizon. Edited December 2, 2012 by cardcutter

[strickj]

You guys try singing a "symbolic" letter of resignation at work and let us know how that works out for you


There are two differences between patriots and terrorists.
- Numbers.
[indent=1]Have to have enough to win the fight. Small percentage is not enough[/indent]

- Who wins.
[indent=1]The Confederates were traitors. Today they would be domestic terrorists. Attempting to seceded today would see the same label.[/indent]


Timothy McVeigh was a "patriot" by the standards found within this thread. He was in the military. He loved his country. He saw the union as tyrannical. He was a strong 2nd supporter.
He once wrote: "Is a Civil War Imminent? Do we have to shed blood to reform the current system? I hope it doesn't come to that. But it might"




I am in complete agreement with Dolomite. Even signing a secession petition "symbolically" is traitorous and security clearances should be revoked. You have signed your name on an official petition declaring your desire to no longer be a US citizen.
I would find it rather humorous if DC accepted and removed US citizenship to those that signed it.

Edited December 1, 2012 by strickj

[Guest cardcutter]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354387737' post='853420']
You guys try singing a "symbolic" letter of resignation at work and let us know how that works out for you

[/quote]What do you think an open door policy is? What do you think a suggestion box is for if not to alert the management of your concerns?


[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354387737' post='853420']Timothy McVeigh was a "patriot" by the standards found within this thread. He was in the military. He loved his country. He saw the union as tyrannical. He was a strong 2nd supporter.
He once wrote: "Is a Civil War Imminent? Do we have to shed blood to reform the current system? I hope it doesn't come to that. But it might"[/quote]

No one here has advocated armed conflict .But by all means sir please keep pushing that meme. It makes it so much easier to discount what would otherwise be good points you make.


[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354387737' post='853420']I am in complete agreement with Dolomite. Even signing a secession petition "symbolically" is traitorous and security clearances should be revoked. You have signed your name on an official petition declaring your desire to no longer be a US citizen.
I would find it rather humorous if DC accepted and removed US citizenship to those that signed it.[/quote]


It is nice to know how many of you are willing abdicate your 1st amendment rights and persecute those of us who stand on ours.

Edited December 1, 2012 by cardcutter

[TMF]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354388238' post='853421']

It is nice to know how many of you are willing abdicate your 1st amendment rights and persecute those of us who stand on ours.[/quote]

There are lots of First Amendment things you can do to get your clearance pulled. Renouncing your citizenship is just one of many. Try joining the Black Panthers or a white supremacist group. Hell, overextending your credit can get ya yanked.

[Guest cardcutter]

My topsecret clearance expired back in the 90's.
At my age it is not something I really thought about.

[TMF]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354389179' post='853426']My topsecret clearance expired back in the 90's.
At my age it is not something I really thought about.[/quote]

So I'm sure you're familiar with many of the things that can get a clearance pulled. This petition is skirting very close to that edge. I don't think it will affect anyone, but it could be easily argued that it should.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354389179' post='853426']
My topsecret clearance expired back in the 90's.
[/quote]
Why did you have a “Top Secret Clearance”?

[seez52]

Some commenters here need a history lesson. I expect they will soon get one.

[strickj]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354388238' post='853421']
What do you think an open door policy is? What do you think a suggestion box is for if not to alert the management of your concerns?

[/quote]
Apples and tomatoes. No one made a suggestion nor aired a concern. They signed a secession petition.
Like I said, try doing that at work and see how fast you loose your job

[quote]No one here has advocated armed conflict .But by all means sir please keep pushing that meme. It makes it so much easier to discount what would otherwise be good points you make.[/quote]

Never said that, did I?
Simply pointing out that people in this thread are using their military service and "love of their country" to show their patriotism.
yeah, Timothy McVeigh fit the same standards as many here have.



[quote]It is nice to know how many of you are willing abdicate your 1st amendment rights and persecute those of us who stand on ours.[/quote]
What Constitutional rights? By signing the petition, you have declared that you no longer choose to be a US citizen.
If the US government wants to take you up on that offer and remove your citizenship, then you no longer have any rights from the United States Constitution.
I'm not taking anything away from the signers of the petition.

Edited December 1, 2012 by strickj

[Guest Lester Weevils]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354390000' post='853433']
No one made a suggestion nor aired a concern. They signed a secession petition.
Like I said, try doing that at work and see how fast you loose your job
[/quote]

The petition is a legit thang invited by whitehouse.gov to show how responsive they are to the concerns of the citizenry.

The equivalent corporate suggestion would be "We can improve profit and efficiency all around by selling off some assets and breaking the corp down into more functional manageable units. This will also protect the profitable divisions from being dragged down by the losers, which might cause the entire corporation to eventually go bankrupt."

Move it to a different analogous situation. Biden in the senate and when running for prez, was a top, staunch advocate that the balkanization of Iraq would be the best long-term solution for the people. I personally think his solution may have been one of his few ideas which may have had some kind of merit. Iraq was an "aritificial nation" glued up out of pieces, using rather weak glue, by the brit empire. It would naturally tend to fall apart at the weak glue seams, and be more stable as constituent pieces.

So if balkanization of Iraq was a "pretty good idea" as advocated by Biden (and also some conservatives and libertarians as far as that goes)-- Would this same "sensible suggestion" all of a sudden make an individual Iraqi Kurd, Shiite, or Sunni citizen into an "enemy of the state" to make the same sensible suggestion?

Edited December 1, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[TMF]

[quote name='seez52' timestamp='1354389783' post='853431']Some commenters here need a history lesson. I expect they will soon get one.[/quote]

The history lesson I remember covered secession being a failure and resulted in the deaths of a half million Americans.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354390000' post='853433']
Apples and tomatoes. No one made a suggestion nor aired a concern. They signed a secession petition.
Like I said, try doing that at work and see how fast you loose your job



Never said that, did I?
Simply pointing out that people in this thread are using their military service and "love of their country" to show their patriotism.
yeah, Timothy McVeigh fit the same standards as many here have.




What Constitutional rights? By signing the petition, you have declared that you no longer choose to be a US citizen.
If the US government wants to take you up on that offer and remove your citizenship, then you no longer have any rights from the United States Constitution.
I'm not taking anything away from the signers of the petition.
[/quote]
I don't think they can take one's citizenship away like that, strickj. You have to renounce that. And the simple act of signing a petition doesn't fit any known requirement of treason. It is not a high crime, or a misdemeanor and is not stating anything other else. It also has nothing to do with your job. Why are you using Timothy McVeigh? Not a good comparison, either.

There are government officials who perform treasonous acts daily, yet you have no concern about that?
Look at regulations by the thousands in a matter of days with no congressional oversight, which is their
role. Look at passing laws which they are not subject to, yet we are.
I'm not one saying secede, but I understand where most of the problem lays that causes the sentiment.
The President is supposed to submit a budget each year as part of his executive authority, yet no budget
in three of the last four years, now. Congress has submitted budgets each year since Republicans regained
the house. And you dare say some individual who signs a petition is performing an act of treason?

If some damned government entity wants to start rounding up signers of some petition, at a website the
White House put up for complaints, and starts prosecuting for treason, then you will have your rebellion
inside and outside the beltway. Nonsense.

Edited December 1, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Guest cardcutter]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354389688' post='853430']
Why did you have a “Top Secret Clearance”?
[/quote]
Thats clasified.



No seriously. I was an active duty Marine with access to classified documents and equipment.

[Guest cardcutter]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354389626' post='853429']
So I'm sure you're familiar with many of the things that can get a clearance pulled. This petition is skirting very close to that edge. I don't think it will affect anyone, but it could be easily argued that it should.
[/quote]
I was always of the mind that active duty military should refrain from anything dealing with politics with the exception of voting. Edited December 1, 2012 by cardcutter

[Guest cardcutter]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354390000' post='853433']
Apples and tomatoes. No one made a suggestion nor aired a concern. They signed a secession petition.
Like I said, try doing that at work and see how fast you loose your job [/quote]
Your right you should obviously allow bad things to happen at work or risk the wrath of the company. no matter what!
I would hate to work where you do.


[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354390000' post='853433']Never said that, did I?
Simply pointing out that people in this thread are using their military service and "love of their country" to show their patriotism.
[/quote]
Those of us who did serve have already put our money where our mouth is. We did so not with words but with deeds. So your damn right we have proved our love for and willingness to fight for this country.



[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354390000' post='853433']
What Constitutional rights? By signing the petition, you have declared that you no longer choose to be a US citizen.
If the US government wants to take you up on that offer and remove your citizenship, then you no longer have any rights from the United States Constitution.
I'm not taking anything away from the signers of the petition.
[/quote]
Read the doggone constitution! Petition of the government over our grievances is a fundamental right guaranteed by our constitution. Speaking out about them and yes signing petitions about them are exactly why we have the first amendment.

[TMF]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354396864' post='853480']
I was always of the mind that active duty military should refrain from anything dealing with politics with the exception of voting.[/quote]

I agree.

[TMF]

. Edited December 1, 2012 by TMF

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354396702' post='853478']
Thats clasified.



No seriously. I was an active duty Marine with access to classified documents and equipment.
[/quote]Humm...I had mine primiarily because of access to top secret message traffic (even though handling message traffic wasn't my primary role, just when I was the NCO of the watch).

I was just contacted Friday about a job in New Orleans that requires a Top Secret clearance (working for a major govt contractor)...I wonder if I had signed this petition if that would disqualify me???

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354396864' post='853480']
I was always of the mind that active duty military should refrain from anything dealing with politics with the exception of voting.
[/quote]I was somewhat active in supporting candidates (phone banks, handing out flyers, making what little $ contributions I could afford at the time, etc)...just didn't do so in uniform! Although I would agree that it's safest to stay away as much as possible.

[strickj]

[quote name='cardcutter' timestamp='1354397504' post='853486']
Your right you should obviously allow bad things to happen at work or risk the wrath of the company. no matter what!
I would hate to work where you do.

[/quote]
Again, apples and tomatoes. "Symbolically" telling your boss that you quit will only change your employment status.



[quote]Those of us who did serve have already put our money where our mouth is. We did so not with words but with deeds. So your damn right we have proved our love for and willingness to fight for this country.[/quote]
Yes, you proved your love for this country.
A lot of people in this thread are using their military career as justification for signing the petition and to show their patriotism.
One has no baring on the other.

Timothy McVeigh was all of the above and he too thought that he was a patriot. He was never a patriot.

I appreciate your service a great deal and would never try to discredit that. I'm simply pointing out that a military career means nothing in terms of one's patriotism as is being used in this thread to justify this petition.

There are at least two posters that are former or current military and are outspoken against the petition. If a military career does matter, I guess that makes it about even, eh.


[quote]Read the doggone constitution! Petition of the government over our grievances is a fundamental right guaranteed by our constitution. Speaking out about them and yes signing petitions about them are exactly why we have the first amendment.[/quote]

You exercised your right to petition the government, yes. But you asked for succession. You said that you no longer choose to be a US citizen. IMO, you should be awarded what you specifically asked for.

Meanwhile, I'll remain a TN resident and a proud US citizen and will continue to have the constitutional protections that you gave up. Edited December 2, 2012 by strickj

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='seez52' timestamp='1354389783' post='853431']
Some commenters here need a history lesson. I expect they will soon get one.[/quote]
Some of us are old enough to have lived a bit of history.

If I read my history books right, we've had two civil wars on our soil; one fighting our brothers and countrymen in the American Revolutionary war and the second fighting our brothers and sons and fathers during the American Civil war of the 1860s...both were pretty bloody and messy affairs and there are a number of graveyards around Tennessee to show that. Those two should have been lesson enough but even if not, I'm pretty sure that things aren't so bad that we need another lesson.

[Guest cardcutter]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354402412' post='853528']
A lot of people in this thread are using their military career as justification for signing the petition and to show their patriotism.
One has no baring on the other
I appreciate your service a great deal and would never try to discredit that. I'm simply pointing out that a military career means nothing in terms of one's patriotism as is being used in this thread to justify this petition.[/quote]
I disagree with your whole premise. Those that serve are not fair weather patriots! They have pledged their lives and their honor.and their fortunes for their country and they backed it up.We have sweated, worked , and bled for our country! To put some been nowhere, done nothing ,individual with a computer and an attitude in the same class is an insult to all of us who have served.Just what have you done sir, other than run your mouth off.to support your country?What have you sacrificed? Before you question our patriotism,which is backed up with acts,deeds , and sacrifice perhaps you should do something to justify your own. Edited December 2, 2012 by cardcutter