Secession petition

[gjohnsoniv]

[quote name='OhShoot' timestamp='1352926572' post='845679']
Most of the world loves Obama. Only in the US are his favorable ratings anywhere near as low as 50%.

- OS
[/quote]Gee, I wonder why...

In other news the Democrats said today they think letting us go off the fiscal cliff would be good so we can "rebuild."

[S&WForty]

[quote name='OhShoot' timestamp='1352926572' post='845679']

Most of the world loves Obama. Only in the US are his favorable ratings anywhere near as low as 50%.

- OS[/quote]

They loved his Apology Tour. The countries we've thrown countless dollars at don't like us, and the other countries are envious of us - until Obama's goal of cutting us down to size is accomplished.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

[quote name='gjohnsoniv' timestamp='1352927234' post='845685']
Gee, I wonder why...

In other news the Democrats said today they think letting us go off the fiscal cliff would be good so we can "rebuild."
[/quote]

It worked for reagan and paul volcker. Not saying it will work this time, but worked in the past.

We were teetering on the cliff for nigh on 10 years. A few years ago Carter admitted that he knew we needed pushed off the cliff but he didn't have the guts to do it. Kept putting it off until too close to re-election time.

Then after reagan was elected, volcker backed way up, took a full-speed run, and knocked us off the cliff like an all-star linebacker rolling over a third-string quarterback. It hurt like hell for several years until the contusions and broken bones healed up, and then we were better for awhile.

Hard to say. History appears to repeat but never repeats in a predictable fashion. Edited November 14, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[seez52]

Just shy of secession, states rights, state sovereignty and nullification are our last best hope for saving the nation. It is one of the checks and balances built into our government, it's just not one we've used often enough to remember it.

If Mr. Haslam will refrain from setting up insurance exchanges, refrain from expanding medicare coverage there's nothing the feds can do to make us get on obamacare, it's in the SCOTUS opinion, read it.

And for your reading enjoyment here is a small excerpt from said SCOTUS rulling:

[left][size=4][font=Courier New][i]The Framers thus ensured that powers which "in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people were held by governments more local and more accountable than a distant federal bureaucracy. The independent power of the States also serves as a check on the power of the Federal Government: 'By denying anyone government complete jurisdiction over all the concerns of public life, federalism protects the liberty of the individual from arbitrary power' ... In the typical case we look to the States to defend their prerogatives by adopting 'the simple expedient of not yielding' to federal blandishments when they do not want to embrace the federal policies as their own. [/i][/font][b][font=Courier New][u][i]The States are separate and independent sovereigns. Sometimes they have to act like it."[/i][/u][/font][/b][/size][/left]


Looks to me like even though we might not have agreed with the obamacare rulling, the justices said: "here you go boys, it's in your court now." There's not a better time to begin flexing our sovereign mite than now.

And one last FYI, if obamacare is the law in TN, any of you with individual insurance policies can expect those premiums to double because of the new rules obamacare requires. Chances are you'll be jumping on the government insurance bandwagon toot-sweet. How does that feel? Edited November 14, 2012 by seez52

[Hershmeister]

There is a reason the word Balkanization exists. The nature of governments is towards smaller vs larger nations. Examples:

USSR breakup
Yugoslavia consolidation and breakup
England / Scotland
India breakup into Pakistan/India
A host of Arab and African nations
Czechoslovakia into the Czech and Slovak republics, etc



The united states of america has been an amazing experiment of sovereign States band together to "provide for the common defense and general welfare."

The conflict between balancing Federalism and State powers has been going on for two centuries. Heck, we even had to get a Constitution because the original plan (articles of confederation) was causing too much dysfunction between the States

Most of the historical breakups occured for tribal reasons (ethnicity or religion). Could a nation break apart due to "irreconcilable differences" in terms of the overreach of Federalism? I suppose, but given there is such a heterogenous mix of political views through the country there is no way to easily divide up the nation, and most certainly not peaceably. Even if a state peacefully seceded, individuals within that state who did not agree would become citizens of a foreign country ap to speak. Would they be forced to move out?


While I wholeheartedly agree this nation is on a bad crash course with destiny if we keep on our current track, I can't see a secession movement working out very well, as much as the fantasy sounds like a great solution.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Hershmeister

[strickj]

All 50 states now have petitions up. At least 7 have reached the necessary 25,000 votes needed for a response.

Here's hoping that all 50 states are allowed to secede. At which point - and only at that point - will we be able to come together and band a union of sovereign states, pool our monies and resources to provide a collective defense and essential services to the union.

I propose that we call this uniting of the states: The Union States of America.

[QuietDan]

Ok, so many of us here believe the Obammunist and his minions are low down evil and dangerous thugs who will stop at nothing to fulfill their evil designs on us and the United States.

So, why would you put your name on a list that says you think he's an Evil Bastard and that he'd stop at nothing to destroy the U.S.? Are you going to use your real name and address? If you think he'd stop at nothing, he wouldn't stop himself and his minions from knocking on your door in the middle of the night, collecting you and your family barefoot in their nightshirts and hauling you off in the back of a five-ton truck to a barbed wire compound in the middle of North Dakota.

It would probably be smarter to sign up at one of the ObamaLove websites, learn the Worshipful Songs and the Secret Handshakes, all the while keeping your powder dry in a vault in your back yard and waiting for The Signal. Edited November 16, 2012 by QuietDan

[mikegideon]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1353013182' post='846158']
All 50 states now have petitions up. At least 7 have reached the necessary 25,000 votes needed for a response.

Here's hoping that all 50 states are allowed to secede. At which point - and only at that point - will we be able to come together and band a union of sovereign states, pool our monies and resources to provide a collective defense and essential services to the union.

I propose that we call this uniting of the states: The Union States of America.




[/quote]

OK, fair warning... I'll be campaigning for Dickie Weed as President of Tennessee. Hell with coming together. We have the means to make lots of bacon fat, and have enough crop dusters to deliver it.

Dickie Weed for President. He's tired of this sh#t!

[seez52]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1353015395' post='846177']
We have the means to make lots of bacon fat, and have enough crop dusters to deliver it.


[/quote]

hum, you may have an idea there on some of the terrorist problem....

[mikegideon]

[quote name='seez52' timestamp='1353108122' post='846871']
hum, you may have an idea there on some of the terrorist problem....
[/quote]

Not my idea. It belongs to Dickie. It IS why I supported him for president

[enfield]

[quote name='QuietDan' timestamp='1353014096' post='846165']
Ok, so many of us here believe the Obammunist and his minions are low down evil and dangerous thugs who will stop at nothing to fulfill their evil designs on us and the United States.

So, why would you put your name on a list that says you think he's an Evil Bastard and that he'd stop at nothing to destroy the U.S.? Are you going to use your real name and address? If you think he'd stop at nothing, he wouldn't stop himself and his minions from knocking on your door in the middle of the night, collecting you and your family barefoot in their nightshirts and hauling you off in the back of a five-ton truck to a barbed wire compound in the middle of North Dakota.

It would probably be smarter to sign up at one of the ObamaLove websites, learn the Worshipful Songs and the Secret Handshakes, all the while keeping your powder dry in a vault in your back yard and waiting for The Signal.
[/quote]

I'm not scared of him. He's a LITTLE man. I think I could whip his wife also.

[ttocswob]

Can we secede, then call it the Untied States of America?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

[quote name='ttocswob' timestamp='1353354228' post='848292']
Can we secede, then call it the United States of America?
[/quote]
This the best idea of the bunch. Bravo!

[Daniel]

http://m.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-the-confederacy-of-takers/2012/11/13/d8adc7ee-2dd4-11e2-beb2-4b4cf5087636_story.html

[DaveTN]

[quote name='Daniel' timestamp='1353373508' post='848507']
http://m.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-the-confederacy-of-takers/2012/11/13/d8adc7ee-2dd4-11e2-beb2-4b4cf5087636_story.html
[/quote]
Oh Snap!

[Guest 270win]

I believe this issue is more of an urban VS nonurban and union VS non union workers than totally a state by state of Obama vs the other choice. Memphis when totally for Obama even though TN went for Romney. In the more populated states urban areas hold most of the population, so naturally those states went for Obama. Also the more unionized work force places. Minneapolis is a fine example of that.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That opinion piece is a good one, Daniel. I imagine the red states could handle the debt better than the blue ones have.
They would stop adding to it and probably have a better chance to pay it off, than the blue states could. Plus the
administrative cost of the bureacracy in DC would be gone. I wonder how much that is. The red states would also go to
privatization of a lot of necessary services that DC already forces on us.

Not that I am for any of this talk of secession, but if it ever came to it, I would bet the red states would be better stewards
of their debt than the bozos in DC are proving out to be.

[Chucktshoes]

[quote name='6.8 AR' timestamp='1353379191' post='848572']That opinion piece is a good one, Daniel. I imagine the red states could handle the debt better than the blue ones have.
They would stop adding to it and probably have a better chance to pay it off, than the blue states could. Plus the
administrative cost of the bureacracy in DC would be gone. I wonder how much that is. The red states would also go to
privatization of a lot of necessary services that DC already forces on us.

Not that I am for any of this talk of secession, but if it ever came to it, I would bet the red states would be better stewards
of their debt than the bozos in DC are proving out to be.[/quote]
Agreed. I think that the Op-Ed piece is working off of the assumption that entitlements would remain essentially unchanged. I would assert that is a seriously flawed premise. A more likely scenario, I think, would be a near elimination of welfare/social safety net programs in the former red states and very possibly a migration of poor to the former blue states that maintained generous welfare programs prior to final severance of the two new countries. Combine that with the likelihood of a more favorable business atmosphere with a lower corporate tax rate and no Obamacare in the former reds and you may see some business headquarter migration as well.

All conjecture of course, but I think a far more plausible scenario than assuming a maintenance of the status quo post split.

[strickj]

[quote name='ttocswob' timestamp='1353354228' post='848292']
Can we secede, then call it the Untied States of America?
[/quote]
Sorry. Texas took dibs on that name.

Good news is that the name will be up for grabs again as soon as Mexico invades them.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

[quote name='razorback2003' timestamp='1353375384' post='848533']
I believe this issue is more of an urban VS nonurban and union VS non union workers than totally a state by state of Obama vs the other choice. Memphis when totally for Obama even though TN went for Romney. In the more populated states urban areas hold most of the population, so naturally those states went for Obama. Also the more unionized work force places. Minneapolis is a fine example of that.
[/quote]

Yep if you cast it in terms of R and D, as best I recall looking at state vote percentages, one fifth or more are "near 50-50" including some non-tossup states that are permanently "just a tiny percent" tilted one way or the other. And a handful of outliers at-or-greater than 60-40. With the majority of states bracketed in-between, perhaps an average of 55-45 or closer.

A hypothetical state referendum to secede could of course succeed with the slimmest of margins, but for instance even a place in the 60-40 range, six neighbors for secession would be opposed by four neighbors against secession, so it would hardly be non-controversial. Crazy controversial if the referendum to seceed would be 51-49 or closer.

Then again, the typical deep-blue state republican might be more liberal than a typical deep-red state democrat. Transplant a deep-red state democrat to a deep-blue state and the fella might find himself more right-wing than his new republican neighbors. Or vice-versa. Edited November 20, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[JayC]

[quote name='Chucktshoes' timestamp='1353381625' post='848594']
Agreed. I think that the Op-Ed piece is working off of the assumption that entitlements would remain essentially unchanged. I would assert that is a seriously flawed premise. A more likely scenario, I think, would be a near elimination of welfare/social safety net programs in the former red states and very possibly a migration of poor to the former blue states that maintained generous welfare programs prior to final severance of the two new countries. Combine that with the likelihood of a more favorable business atmosphere with a lower corporate tax rate and no Obamacare in the former reds and you may see some business headquarter migration as well.

All conjecture of course, but I think a far more plausible scenario than assuming a maintenance of the status quo post split.
[/quote]


We could do this today... The legislature could remove funding of TennCare and other welfare programs tomorrow, allowing private groups such as churches to fill that roll.

[wjh2657]

Tennessee secedes.

1. TVA is dismantled (Federal Property) and electric power is cut off. Tennessee will have to build an all new Electric power infrastructure.
2. All Federal support to Tennessee institutions will be stopped. Tennessee goes to 65% Income Tax to fund said institutions.
3. All protection from U.S. Constitution is voided. Tennessee Constitution applies only to Tennessee. Visit relatives in Alabama and go to Guantanamo, you have no rights so shut up and eat your moldy bread.
4. Other states no longer recognize TN vehicle and operator licences or HCPs. 2nd Amendment no longer applies to TN citizens, you are illegal immigrants. Guantanamo.
5. Interstate commerce into and out of TN (a foreign country) subject to tariffs.
6. No postal service.



Biggest problem. You don't petition for succession. You fire on Fort Campbell and declare independence from U.S. Entire U.S. military might legally invades Tennessee.


Still sound like a good deal?

Fact is, like it or not, states are no longer capable of existing as separate entities. Edited November 20, 2012 by wjh2657

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='wjh2657' timestamp='1353431574' post='848771']...Biggest problem. You don't petition for succession. You fire on Fort Campbell and declare independence from U.S. Entire U.S. military might legally invades Tennessee.


Still sound like a good deal?

Fact is, like it or not, states are no longer capable of existing as separate entities.
[/quote]To be blunt (which is a problem for me); I find it a bit appalling that there are people who actually do think secession is either a good idea or even possible.

I'm also a bit sad that such talk is even allowed to go on here.

But to answer the above question; no, it doesn't sound like a good idea but as is usually the case, people tend to want to deal with the "romance" of an issue and not the reality of it...it sounds very manly/tough/patriotic/freedom-loving/independent to talk about secession (which is really just a substitute for revolution) but dealing with the harsh realities of what would happen isn't so romantic.

[Commando68]

So the tough gun owning patriots acquiesce and become little emasculated, disarmed, socialist slaves? Paying tribute to kingobama?surrendering those nasty weapons that the state views as obstacles to it's ever expanding power and influence? What about the 10th amendment? So when king o appoints two more SCOTUS and they abolish the 22 amendment. Our dear leader reigns supreme as uncontested dictator? Hey anything goes right? All should just kiss the hand of the slave master and turn in your rifles! Great.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Commando68' timestamp='1353450147' post='848897']
So the tough gun owning patriots acquiesce and become little emasculated, disarmed, socialist slaves? Paying tribute to kingobama?surrendering those nasty weapons that the state views as obstacles to it's ever expanding power and influence? What about the 10th amendment? So when king o appoints two more SCOTUS and they abolish the 22 amendment. Our dear leader reigns supreme as uncontested dictator? Hey anything goes right? All should just kiss the hand of the slave master and turn in your rifles! Great.
[/quote]

You're right; it's time to give up on the Constitution and peaceful ways to effect change...it's far better to grab our "assault" rifles (before Obama confiscates them) and fight another civil war in our streets and among our homes while our children duck and cover....yeah...that's the answer!