Secession petition

[enfield]

The election showed that a lot of people don't value freedom, they just want someone to take care of them. This discussion shows the same thing.

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352895165' post='845370']
We would gain all or industry shutting down, our banking system gone, our external food supply greatly reduced if not shut off altogether. We would not have control of TVA and would probably be without power.

In short, we would be cut off from all the life sustaining supplies we need and we would either die or be forced to stop the non-sense.

We live in an age on TV; not reality. Most of those suggesting this picture themselves running through the country side carry a gun and being a hero (that’s how it works on TV). Reality is most of us couldn’t run across the street let alone the country side, and most don’t have the skills to stay alive or out of the way of a bullet for more than a couple of days.
[/quote]

I wonder if any of these people wanting to secede realize this?

********************************************************************

As I said earlier people will starve, people will be killed and we will be a third world ####hole inside of probably a week. If not a week then definitely a month. No electricty, no gas, no medicine, no food or any other things needed to just survive. And in 3 months people will be killing each other for a twinkie to feed their child. People who were civilized will become animals in order to survive. They will prey upon the weak. Watch the move "The Road" to get an idea of what we will become inside of a few months.

People have this dillusion that they will go to bed, the state will secede, and then they wake up go on with their lives just much better off. In reality they will go to bed and get woken up by the frigid air because there is no electricty to heat their home. They try to take a shower but there is no water or if there is it will be cold because of no electricty. Then they head off to work but stop to get gas and a coffee then realize they can't because there is no electricty. Then when they finally get to work they realize there is no more work because they have too have no electricity. Just having our electricty turned off would turn us into Afghanistan over night.

Now is the time to really get pissed and then use that to motivate you to get involved. I mean do not just go vote but make phone calls, volunteer and do whatever it takes to win this next set of elections. Because we [u]ARE[/u] going to loose control of the entire federal government if we do not. If we sit by and do nothing we all will be paying the price. They have already proven they are motivated to winand we need to be just as motivated if we expect to keep things as they are.

Dolomite

[TMF]

[quote name='Lester Weevils' timestamp='1352874017' post='845329']

Just being pedantic, not advocating--- If a legitimately elected state gov were to secede, and a majority of state citizens were cool with it, how illegitimate would that be? Sounds about as legitimate as it gets as far as I can see.

Now ferinstance if california were to secede, my reaction would be, "Don't let the screen door hit you on the way out." [/quote]

Ha, my reaction would be the same. Perhaps I'm cross threading here. There seems there is all the talk about impending revolt and blah blah, so I'm getting slightly off topic by bring up the redicularity of it all.

[E4 No More]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352809993' post='844738']
Last Tuesday 59 MILLION people got off their azz and went to a polling place to show their dissatisfaction. They showed ID and signed their real names with their real addresses. It made no difference.

What makes you think 650K people doing nothing more than clicking on a web link would send any kind of a message or that anyone would care?

There isn’t going to be any secession by any state. Our government is not going to be overthrown by any radical forces because it is protected by Patriots. The only way you are going to change our government is at the polling place.
Many of the middle class is too busy or too indifferent to vote. The poor and those living off the government are voting and they are voting for bigger monthly checks and free healthcare.

Internet petitions are a joke.
[/quote]You contradicted yourself here. If 59 million people didn't make a difference by their vote why would you send them out to vote? Just saying... Edited November 14, 2012 by SWJewellTN

[JayC]

Who is watching TV and thinking that we'd be cut off without food and power?

Recent history doesn't seem to support your argument, look at the break up of the Soviet Union... States were allowed to leave and form their own countries, and while all of that happened under a massive economic turmoil... trade didn't stop, cross board travel didn't stop, and life went on in a crappy way.

If a single state or small group of states left under peaceful circumstances, trade would continue between those states and the rest of the country, agreements would be reached on power, water rights, trade and travel between the states which left and the states that stayed.

When it happens we might well be starving but it won't be because of some blockade... it will be a total economic collapse within the US as a whole.

I don't really support secession at this time, we're not there yet... The TN legislature has a lot to do to get our house in order first.... The most important thing we could do in TN, is repeal all social welfare spending, pass a law that only provides education funding to US citizens.

Those 2 provisions would do a lot towards making this state a lot more free.

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352895165' post='845370']
We would gain all or industry shutting down, our banking system gone, our external food supply greatly reduced if not shut off altogether. We would not have control of TVA and would probably be without power.

In short, we would be cut off from all the life sustaining supplies we need and we would either die or be forced to stop the non-sense.

We live in an age on TV; not reality. Most of those suggesting this picture themselves running through the country side carry a gun and being a hero (that’s how it works on TV). Reality is most of us couldn’t run across the street let alone the country side, and most don’t have the skills to stay alive or out of the way of a bullet for more than a couple of days.
[/quote] Edited November 14, 2012 by JayC

[RobertNashville]

I'm more than a little stunned that anyone is actually discussing this as a serious topic.

There will be no secession and certainly not a "peaceful" one in any case. Moreover, secession would not solve any problems because the only real problem is the people/society today so unless you envision a state with no people in it, the problems will remain.

[Commando68]

Suggested Reading: "Molon Labe" by Boston Tea Party. I think this attitude of going along with the agenda or your twinky supply will dwindle is wimpy. We possess the teeth of liberty. The bottom feeding, statist slime from the swamp in washington want to take away those teeth. How would the putrid, socialist leeches from the white house enforce this doomsday scenario on a new Republic of 4-5 states? It cannot happen. Leviathan would get bitten in one of it's many tentacles.

[RobertNashville]

Yeah...and then the Leviathan would bite back.

Shoot an elephant with a .22 and if he notices at all, it will just piss him off.

[Commando68]

If Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, George Washington and the gang had that attitude we would be subjects to the British Monarchy. Through creeping socialism and the growth of the nanny state we have created a nation of pathetic "american idol" worshipping sheepish slaves to the fedgov. Rugged Independent Americans that can think for themselves and have a job have to pay for it. We are no longer the land of the free and home of the brave. That is a joke. Secession is the answer. Libertarian principles of limited govt and personal freedom would make the new Republics work.

[K191145]

[quote name='Dolomite_supafly' timestamp='1352866886' post='845289']
Someone, anyone, explain to me how removing ourselves from the United States of America will make us better.

I know this is symbolic but realistically if we were allowed to secede what would we gain?

Dolomite
[/quote]

Yes it's symbolic, it's mainly a protest. I don't think "MOST" of those who sign a petition to secede are actually serious about seceding, just sending a message to the Obama administration of no confidense. A better worded petition of seccession might include that so and so state petitions to secede from the [b]Socialist States of Hussien [/b]and form the country, the [b]United States of America [/b]and re-adopt the constitution written in the later 1700's by the original founding fathers. I'm not going to call these petitioners idiots or traitors because I know where they are comming from. It's just a protest to stir some emotions,(p!ss some liberals off) and send a message of how divided the current Commie in Chief and his socialist toadies are making our country.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Commando68' timestamp='1352911040' post='845493']
If Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, George Washington and the gang had that attitude we would be subjects to the British Monarchy. Through creeping socialism and the growth of the nanny state we have created a nation of pathetic "american idol" worshipping sheepish slaves to the fedgov. Rugged Independent Americans that can think for themselves and have a job have to pay for it. We are no longer the land of the free and home of the brave. That is a joke. Secession is the answer. Libertarian principles of limited govt and personal freedom would make the new Republics work.[/quote]
We have a Constitution so that we don't have to have armed rebellion - but hey, if you think taking up arms because an election didn't go the way you wanted is the smart move, feel free to do so.

[RichardR]

Has anyone ever heard of the term "agent provocateur?" If you haven't I would suggest educating yourself on the topic.

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='Commando68' timestamp='1352911040' post='845493']
If Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, George Washington and the gang had that attitude we would be subjects to the British Monarchy. Through creeping socialism and the growth of the nanny state we have created a nation of pathetic "american idol" worshipping sheepish slaves to the fedgov. Rugged Independent Americans that can think for themselves and have a job have to pay for it. We are no longer the land of the free and home of the brave. That is a joke. Secession is the answer. Libertarian principles of limited govt and personal freedom would make the new Republics work.
[/quote]

You are no patriot. You are going to give up on the country when they need us most. You will not be able to do s single thing to effect change if you are no longer a citizen of the US.

What did you do, other than just vote, to forward your candidate and his way of thinking?

To me those who want to secede have denounced their US citizenship and should have all the perks of being a citizen removed. After all if you no longer want to be a part of this country or the political process you should not benefit from it either.

Imagine how many would be crying right now if they were told they are no longer a US citizen and not allowed to vote? Or told they would not be eligible to receive the federal income tax return or their retirement. Or they were cut off from the unemployment benefits?

Those wanting to remove themselves from the US go right ahead. There are plenty of other countries that will gladly take an American patriot.

Dolomite

[mav]

I swear, I wish a lot of you would really lighten up on the matter. No, I am talking about those who have petitioned for secession.

I do not wish for secession, and I am willing to bet that the vast majority of those who are espousing it do not want it either. Why are they asking for it if they don't really mean it? It is a cry for help, nothing more. Honestly, I think it is a plea to the state legislatures to do something to stop the nonsense coming from Washington. A lot of Americans are seeing dramatic changes in their country for the worse, and they feel helpless to do anything about it.

For example, their vote is becoming meaningless. In 2010, with the help of the Tea Party, Republicans regained control of the house to put a stop to the Obama and socialist Democrats agenda. Did it work? No. There were numerous occasions where the Republicans could have stopped a lot of this crap, which they were elected to do, via the power of the purse and they didn't do a damn thing. You can also look at recent comments from Speaker Boehner. It was total capitulation. I could go on and on with page after page of examples. Sheesh, I don't even want to go into all the crap and malfeasance that happened during this election cycle.

Instead of secession, what a lot of people should be asking for is that their state legislatures start using nullification. We have seen a few cases of this in the past. California's pot shops would be a great example. California basically told the federal government to get bent in regards to California's leniency on pot and their pot shops. I can't recall an incident where you had a band of federal agents rounding up and arresting all of those people who were in clear violation of federal law.

I could be wrong, but I believe it is incendiary rhetoric from both sides of any issue that typically make matters worse.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

These secession petitions show me something this administration wants: a bit of anarchy could happen. This
could make it easier for a regime change. They are not going to help anything until the whole country demands
something different from our government, by a vote.

Until then, they are only dangerous for the republic. Edited November 14, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Guest 6.8 AR]

[quote name='mav' timestamp='1352923322' post='845638']
I swear, I wish a lot of you would really lighten up on the matter. No, I am talking about those who have petitioned for secession.

I do not wish for secession, and I am willing to bet that the vast majority of those who are espousing it do not want it either. Why are they asking for it if they don't really mean it? It is a cry for help, nothing more. Honestly, I think it is a plea to the state legislatures to do something to stop the nonsense coming from Washington. A lot of Americans are seeing dramatic changes in their country for the worse, and they feel helpless to do anything about it.

For example, their vote is becoming meaningless. In 2010, with the help of the Tea Party, Republicans regained control of the house to put a stop to the Obama and socialist Democrats agenda. Did it work? No. There were numerous occasions where the Republicans could have stopped a lot of this crap, which they were elected to do, via the power of the purse and they didn't do a damn thing. You can also look at recent comments from Speaker Boehner. It was total capitulation. I could go on and on with page after page of examples. Sheesh, I don't even want to go into all the crap and malfeasance that happened during this election cycle.

Instead of secession, what a lot of people should be asking for is that their state legislatures start using nullification. We have seen a few cases of this in the past. California's pot shops would be a great example. California basically told the federal government to get bent in regards to California's leniency on pot and their pot shops. I can't recall an incident where you had a band of federal agents rounding up and arresting all of those people who were in clear violation of federal law.

I could be wrong, but I believe it is incendiary rhetoric from both sides of any issue that typically make matters worse.
[/quote]
Mav. I agree with you, except the part of the house controlling the purse strings. We are not operating on a budget, just
a continuing resolution. The Republicans have submitted budgets all along and the Senate has squashed them.
Otherwise, I agree completely. Boehner should be replaced by someone like Ryan and stir the pot, like the Dems did
with Reagan. We need the Senate in a bad way.

[RobertNashville]

I don't believe nullification does or can work. Specifically with regards to Obamacare, for example, I believe SCOTUS has already said FU to the states.

I think a state can say we aren't going to help you install your programs but I don't think they can stop a damn thing.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Robert, nullification absolutely can work. It would take a vast majority of the states to do it, more like a Constitutional
Convention, which isn't really nullification, but it could be overtaken by the states. Obamacare is only constitutional
in the narrow interpretation of taxation only. The rest can be bitten away by the states like not starting those exchanges,
that are not even funded by the bill.
It probably will take a vast majority of participation to accomplish it, though.

[Guest Baron]

When I was 6 years-old, I got into an argument with my parents. In my anger, I packed up two shirts and a box of crayons into a pillowcase and announced to them that I was running away from home. My father opened the door for me, but to my disappointment, it happened to be during thunder storm. I will never forget my fathers words....

"Good luck"

Needles to say I barely avoided tripping over my bottom lip while I carried my bag of crayons back to my room.


Look, I get it. I even agree with every reason people would want to succeed. However, the painful truth is that you can't. Back during the civil war you had strong independent states. You had strong independent states because you had strong independent people. That no longer exists. What hasn't been swindled by the Federal Government has been foolishly abandoned by the individual.

It is too late for rebellious actions. The federal cancer can not be cut out without killing the patient. Admit it or not, but even the most self-sfufficent of us are dependent on federal money and/or infrastructures. But don't worry, those feral moneys, polices and infrastructures will be going away soon. It has almost reached critical mass and will soon implode upon itself. The weakest of us will wake up and there won't be that free food check in the mailbox.

So best to tuck in that bottom lip and get to work. Make sure you have what you need when it suddenly is no longer where it use to be.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='6.8 AR' timestamp='1352924163' post='845650']
Robert, nullification absolutely can work. It would take a vast majority of the states to do it, more like a Constitutional
Convention, which isn't really nullification, but it could be overtaken by the states. Obamacare is only constitutional
in the narrow interpretation of taxation only. The rest can be bitten away by the states like not starting those exchanges,
that are not even funded by the bill.
It probably will take a vast majority of participation to accomplish it, though.
[/quote]I would like to think you are right...I don't...but I'd like to think so because, as Baron just indicated, we don't have strong individual states or strong individual people anymore, at least not strong enough to stand up to the Federal government.

Even Haslem with the state exchanges, he isn't trying to decide what is the "right" think to do, he's simply trying to decide what is the least expensive (to TN) to do (I stole that from Ralph Bristol this morning).

Trying to stop the Federal government from what it really wants to do is a bit like fighting an aggressive cancer, you can fight it if you want and you may even stall it for a while but you don't often truly "win" the war.

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='JayC' timestamp='1352905579' post='845432']
,,,,,Recent history doesn't seem to support your argument, look at the break up of the Soviet Union... States were allowed to leave and form their own countries, and while all of that happened under a massive economic turmoil... trade didn't stop, cross board travel didn't stop, and life went on in a crappy way...[/quote]

I don't think that's a valid analogy. A long complicated affair, but basically Mother Russia kept granting more and more autonomy to its SSRs and eventually cut them loose via it's own prerogative. All spurred by systemic economic failure.

So far, Mother USA (Washington, DC) is still tightening control over its states.

Perhaps once we totally fail economically as did the USSR, something similar might occur. But what results wouldn't be 50 individual nation states, but regional countries. Like the United South East, Confederation of Mountain States, Rust Belt Federation, New England Union, Pacific Pact, whatever. Might reform into a looser national confederation for trade purposes just as the current CIS that replaced the USSR.

Hmm, maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

- OS Edited November 14, 2012 by OhShoot

[mav]

[quote name='6.8 AR' timestamp='1352923685' post='845644']
Mav. I agree with you, except the part of the house controlling the purse strings. We are not operating on a budget, just
a continuing resolution.
[/quote]

That is 100% correct. However, both houses are needed to pass the continuing resolution. If one house fails to pass it, as what happened with Gingrich, the government shut downs because by law they are not allowed to spend any money. Boehner and his camp didn't even play hardball with Reid or Obama. Remember the outcry of the people saying to let it shut down, and Boehner saying that they are going to do everything, which includes bowing down to Reid and Obama, to prevent that from happening?

[Commando68]

Our Constitution will be shredded when the dear leader appoints one or two more supreme court justices. This system does NOT WORK. When we hit 20 trillion in debt and barry's cloward/piven strategy(bring down the economy by overwhelming with entitlements) pays off none of this will matter. The people that voted for the ivy league communist are either: socialists, black, hispanic, feminists, labor union thugs or what I call the "american idol mentality" lobotomized sheep. So yes, I am turing my back on the obamanation. We are the laughing stock of the world reelecting someone that despises the very country he was elected to lead.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That's right,Mav, but the continuation of government is all they are trying to accomplish. If that's all they
can do, it should fail, and they should be made to go home and face their constituents. I remember a senator trying to accomodate Obamacare in PA and he was met with outright hatred. Had to have dogs protect him. Arlen Specter. Remember that? Edited November 14, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='Commando68' timestamp='1352926370' post='845676']
....We are the laughing stock of the world reelecting someone that despises the very country he was elected to lead.
[/quote]

Most of the world loves Obama. Only in the US are his favorable ratings anywhere near as low as 50%.

- OS