Dem's and the 2nd Amendment

[Guest FIST]

Back story: I was born and unfortunately raised in Illinois, luckily though it was Southern Illinois. Southern Illinois is made up of mostly democrats (Big coal area and strong Union support). I still have family and friends there that I speak with somewhat regularly.

So, lots of folks say democrats are anti 2A. I disagree, but my point is based on my experience while living behind enemy lines. As most know, there is talk of a new AWB, U.N. Arms treaty, new tax's and regulations etc. I think we can all agree this talk originates from the Left.

Many say you can't be a Dem and be pro 2A, this just isn't true. Most if not all of the people I know that identify themselves as democrats are also gun owners. Those I know will vehemently defend their right to keep and bear arms. The disconnect seems to be what should and should not be allowed in the hands of your average American.

The majority of pro 2A Dems I know have pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc. What they don't normally have are semi auto versions of military rifles (Commonly misrepresented with the term "Assault rifle"). In their eyes an AWB doesn't matter, it doesn't affect them.

They don't use nor desire an AR for hunting therefore they see no practical use for one. They don't see that an AWB is a useless attempt to restrict gun rights. They think that their hunting rifles and shotguns are safe. When speaking with them about firearms restrictions its very difficult to get the point across that ANY restriction on firearms of any form is unconstitutional.

You see, they love their guns as much as much as I love mine, we just view what's considered practical differently. We as gun owners, sport shooters, and firearms enthusiasts need to take a different approach. We need to show them how much fun, how useful, and how practical an AR or (Insert semi auto rifle) can be. We have to clarify and debunk myths about so called "Assault Weapons" with facts.

I'm sure many TGO'ers see certain makes and models of firearms as "pointless" or "not practical", I know I do. Even though I may not have a use for an AR pistol I will defend an individuals right to own one. A man or woman, that's raised in a home that hunts may love them a Remington 700 but could care less about an AR.

One of, if not the biggest myth I run into with Dem's I know is that AR's and AK's are full auto. This is usually followed with "easy to purchase" and "you don't need 30 rds to kill bambi". Many aren't aware of the restrictions, paperwork, and cost involved to purchase a full auto weapon. Informing them of the facts normally remedies this.

As firearms owners we are weaker divided. If we stick together we are stronger than any "Anti Gun" politician or any crap they throw at us. It starts by arming ourselves with the facts, introducing shooting sports to our youth, showing the value of defending your loved ones, and putting an end to the ridiculous myths of firearms.

I try and do my part. I taught my sister, wife, kids, and a few pals that firearms are fun, valuable tools, and even dispelled a few myths. My little sister went from thinking guns blow away the world in front of you to safely handling and using a firearm. I've taken friends that are dems and shown them that AR's are useful in multiple ways. I even managed to help my college educated dem boss understand that "Full Auto" weapons aren't handed out willy nilly.

Teaching that firearms are a tool and that any tool is safe if used properly is a start. Talk to your friends, teach new shooters, dispel myths, educate, educate, educate; It's the only way we will ever truly defend the 2nd Amendment without bloodshed.

FIST

[TrickyNicky]

Very well said and 100% correct.

[hipower]

Thanks FIST. Well stated comments.

[DaveTN]

I was also raised in Illinois only I’m not ashamed of it. Comparing all of Illinois to Chicago is like comparing all of Tennessee to Memphis. I work to help educate the people of Illinois when I am there and they are close to getting another shot at carry permits.

Only I take a little different approach than you. As I tell them, when you are talking with a state legislator the minute the words “My 2nd Amendment rights” cross your lips; you don’t have any credibility. The 2nd amendment fight has been fought and for the time being it has been settled by the SCOTUS. You can argue the rulings all you want; but they are the law of the land.

So, do you want to argue about rights that you don’t have, or do you want carry privileges? I have been arrested and jailed for no crime other than having a loaded gun in my car; so I am absolutely sure that I don’t have a 2nd amendment right to bear arms. So should I just give up? Of course not. Illinois doesn’t recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right, and neither does the state of Tennessee. But being able to carry a gun dosen’t require that they do.

Being Democrat or Republican has little to do with what a person believes about gun rights/privileges. Every state has its problems. I am trying to help my friends and family be able to carry guns in Illinois.

I would also like to ask my friends on this forum to stop with the bitter attacks on the citizens of the state of Illinois. They make you look terrible and hate filled. They are fighting the same fight the citizens of many states fought in order to be able to carry. Please support our brothers and sisters in arms in Illinois. I can assure you that it is a fight between the good people downstate and the thugs in Chicago that don’t want to get shot, or have their juvenile delinquent kids they raised, killed by armed citizens that refuse to be victims.

I love the state of Illinois and I hope to return there when I retire; it is home. I have been in Tennessee for 14 years and have a few more to go. I am a law abiding citizen and try to help my community in any way I can. I served my country, have two honorable discharges, served my community as a Police Officer and am proud to call myself an American and a Patriot. I would never turn my back on an American in need no matter what state they live in.

[Smith]

Unfortunately you are defined by the company you keep. That goes for states as well.
While there are pro 2A dems it is their party that continues to push for absolute bans. We have to keep our eyes on republicans as well, since they enable the left. Its also true that many dems are actually conservative, but when they elect leftist simply for the D it negates their intentions. Same goes for issues with R's.
If they wasn't to change that perception they need to stop voting party and vote their conscience and values. Goes both ways.

[RobertNashville]

I love the people of Illinois...I love Chicago...lived there for a year...I used to visit all the time just because I loved it but I stopped that a few years ago when I began to realize that my tourist dollars was only helping to perpetuate their unconstitutional gun laws.

I travel Route 66 which, for anyone who doesn't know, starts in Chicago with a significant portion running the length of Illinois - I won't go there anymore; these days I pick up the route in Missouri.

My problem isn't with the people of Illinois; it's with the politicians who RUN the state and who operate it as if it's a soviet state...as long as that condition exists, they'll never see my face, or my money ever again.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352647256' post='843718']
I was also raised in Illinois only I’m not ashamed of it. Comparing all of Illinois to Chicago is like comparing all of Tennessee to Memphis. I work to help educate the people of Illinois when I am there and they are close to getting another shot at carry permits.

Only I take a little different approach than you. As I tell them, when you are talking with a state legislator the minute the words “My 2nd Amendment rights” cross your lips; you don’t have any credibility. The 2nd amendment fight has been fought and for the time being it has been settled by the SCOTUS. You can argue the rulings all you want; but they are the law of the land.

So, do you want to argue about rights that you don’t have, or do you want carry privileges? I have been arrested and jailed for no crime other than having a loaded gun in my car; so I am absolutely sure that I don’t have a 2nd amendment right to bear arms. So should I just give up? Of course not. Illinois doesn’t recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right, and neither does the state of Tennessee. But being able to carry a gun dosen’t require that they do.

Being Democrat or Republican has little to do with what a person believes about gun rights/privileges. Every state has its problems. I am trying to help my friends and family be able to carry guns in Illinois.

I would also like to ask my friends on this forum to stop with the bitter attacks on the citizens of the state of Illinois. They make you look terrible and hate filled. They are fighting the same fight the citizens of many states fought in order to be able to carry. Please support our brothers and sisters in arms in Illinois. I can assure you that it is a fight between the good people downstate and the thugs in Chicago that don’t want to get shot, or have their juvenile delinquent kids they raised, killed by armed citizens that refuse to be victims.

I love the state of Illinois and I hope to return there when I retire; it is home. I have been in Tennessee for 14 years and have a few more to go. I am a law abiding citizen and try to help my community in any way I can. I served my country, have two honorable discharges, served my community as a Police Officer and am proud to call myself an American and a Patriot. I would never turn my back on an American in need no matter what state they live in.
[/quote]

I have spent a lot of time in Illinios. The problem with gun laws almost all comes from the Chicago area. Lots of great people in that state. Plenty of gun owners too. The same can be said for California and New York. When I bash any of those states, I'm bashing the ant-gun majority. Illinois has a tough road ahead. I wish them luck.

[Guest FIST]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352647256' post='843718']
I was also raised in Illinois only I’m not ashamed of it.
[/quote]

I probably shouldn't have used the word "ashamed" as its more than a firearms issue.

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352647256' post='843718']
I love the state of Illinois and I hope to return there when I retire
[/quote]

I have been faced with the decision of moving back there, but don't believe I will.


If you don't mind me asking, what part are you originally from?

[DaveTN]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1352653366' post='843780']
I have spent a lot of time in Illinios. The problem with gun laws almost all comes from the Chicago area. Lots of great people in that state. Plenty of gun owners too. The same can be said for California and New York. When I bash any of those states, I'm bashing the ant-gun majority. Illinois has a tough road ahead. I wish them luck.
[/quote]
Thanks Mike.

Right now Illinois is looking at the possibility of getting permit through the County Sherriff on at “At will” basis. That’s not the perfect scenario, but otherwise carry permits is dead. Cook County and the City of Chicago will spend whatever they have to spend and do whatever it takes to keep from being forced to allow carry.

I’m keeping my fingers crossed they get this done, at least it’s a start.

I do a lot of my shooting in Illinois with my family. I take a Suburban fully loaded with weapons and ammo and drive right into the heart of the beast without a care in the world. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img] Of course I don’t have to go to Chicago.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='FIST' timestamp='1352654415' post='843792']
I have been faced with the decision of moving back there, but don't believe I will.
[/quote]
I would have been back there already but my wife says if I go I’m going without her.
Nothing against Tennessee; but Illinois is home.

[quote name='FIST' timestamp='1352654415' post='843792']
If you don't mind me asking, what part are you originally from?
[/quote]
Central Illinois. I was living in Champaign when I moved here, but my family is spread across central Illinois from Danville to Springfield. I do most of my shooting in Illiopolis.

[mikegideon]

I haven't lived there since I was a kid, but have had lots of Job related stuff there over the years. Fist brought up some real good points in his original post. Folks that have spent their whole lives in the Chicago area have never been around guns unless they were in a job that required them. They don't get it, because it's never been part of their lives. I don't know how you fix that when the government thugs do their best to keep things as is.

I'm not in touch enough to know if there's any hope. From the outside looking in, I doubt it. The population in Chicago isn't getting any smaller.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1352655899' post='843804']
I haven't lived there since I was a kid, but have had lots of Job related stuff there over the years. Fist brought up some real good points in his original post. Folks that have spent their whole lives in the Chicago area have never been around guns unless they were in a job that required them. They don't get it, because it's never been part of their lives. I don't know how you fix that when the government thugs do their best to keep things as is.

I'm not in touch enough to know if there's any hope. From the outside looking in, I doubt it. The population in Chicago isn't getting any smaller.
[/quote]
It’s not that the people of Chicago don’t have experience with guns; it’s that they have too much. If you are a black male in the city of Chicago the chances are great you will be shot and it will be by another black male. Gang bangers shooting each other, and blacks on both sides of the counters in the stores being shot during armed robberies. These mothers groups and citizens groups are being told that if they help outlaw guns, their gang bangin’ thug kids they raised won’t get killed in a gang shootout or while they are robbing the local Stop & Rob.

The people of the city of Chicago elect people like Bobby Rush (Co-Founder of the Illinois chapter of the Black Panthers) and Jesse Jackson Jr. to the House of Representatives. How can you get anything done with representatives like that? You can't unless you separate the state and let the counties handle it. Edited November 11, 2012 by DaveTN

[gregintenn]

[quote]My problem isn't with the people of Illinois; it's with the politicians who RUN the state and who operate it as if it's a soviet state...[/quote]
Aren't these politicians elected, re-elected, etc. by the majority of the people if Illinois? I blame the people.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='gregintenn' timestamp='1352736636' post='844291']
Aren't these politicians elected, re-elected, etc. by the majority of the people if Illinois? I blame the people.
[/quote]

Population of the Chicago Metro: 9.7 Million
Population of Illinois: 12.9 Million

[gregintenn]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1352737017' post='844298']
Population of the Chicago Metro: 9.7 Million
Population of Illinois: 12.9 Million
[/quote]
Okay.....I blame the majority of the people in Chicago.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='gregintenn' timestamp='1352737232' post='844303']
Okay.....I blame the majority of the people in Chicago.
[/quote]

Yep.

[Guest FIST]

Dave[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352655711' post='843802']
Central Illinois. I was living in Champaign when I moved here, but my family is spread across central Illinois from Danville to Springfield. I do most of my shooting in Illiopolis.
[/quote]

I'm originally from Sparta, just north of Carbondale and east/south east of the Belleville/Fairview Heights area. Have you heard of or been to the World Shooting and Recreational Complex in Sparta? It's a multi-million compound that hosts amateur skeet shooting championships, I've heard it has huge draws during the competions but haven't been there.

[Guest FIST]

Chicago is the single most deciding factor in Illinois's firearm laws.

The link below is proof that firearm owning Dems love the 2nd. The shooting complex is in the middle of coal/union country.

http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/recreation/wsrc/Pages/default.aspx

[Guest HvyMtl]

This post, and its responses point, to the critical problem with U.S. politics. This "Either GOP, Or DEM" problem. The parties cannot be all encompassing. Nor does the majority of political questions, and beliefs, be encompassed by the "either or." This is why you have pro-choice GOP and pro-gun DEM. See the flaw? Edited November 12, 2012 by HvyMtl

[Will H]

I do not understand how someone can possibly call themselves a pro 2A Democrat. It's like a calling yourself a Republican and supporting all the social programs that come down the pipe. IMO, and not meaning to offend, the anti-2A stance is fundamental to the Democrat platform and is such a large issue it cannot be ignored.

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='Will H' timestamp='1352751100' post='844401']
... It's like a calling yourself a Republican and supporting all the social programs that come down the pipe. [/quote]

I've recently just started listening to Jerry Doyle some on talk radio. Really like this guy so far, he's like Boortz squared, without any Savage wackiness.

He had a guest on not long ago, Nicholas Eberstat, who has written [i]A Nation of Takers: America's Entitlement Epidemic [/i].

Haven't read it yet, but he made a brief but pretty persuasive case on the show that the GOP has actually been just as instrumental through the years, dollar for dollar, for expanding entitlements as the Dems, who first thunk them up and implemented them.

the book:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599474352/?tag=jerrydoyle.com-20"]http://www.amazon.co...rrydoyle.com-20[/url]

Jerry Doyle Show:
[url="http://www.jerrydoyle.com/"]http://www.jerrydoyle.com/[/url]

- OS Edited November 12, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest FIST]

[quote name='Will H' timestamp='1352751100' post='844401']
I do not understand how someone can possibly call themselves a pro 2A Democrat. It's like a calling yourself a Republican and supporting all the social programs that come down the pipe. IMO, and not meaning to offend, the anti-2A stance is fundamental to the Democrat platform and is such a large issue it cannot be ignored.
[/quote]

It's no doubt that "Gun Control" is a leftist issue, but I'm sure there are anti gun R's out there. The majority of people don't fit the standard party profile. An individual identifying as a democrat doesn't make them anti gun.

Gun owners come from all walks of life but have one thing in common, what's to gain by dividing us? Nothing good for the shooting community. As many gun owners as there are in this country, were a minority. Add the different views on gun rights amongst ourselves and the group starts shrinking.

Talk all you want about spilling blood in defense of gun rights, then take a long hard look at yourself. Are you truly ready for a fight? How many meds are you on? How many pounds overweight? Kids, wife? Training? Killed a man before? Could you do it again? Are you ready to kill men you know? Americans?

Im not looking for answers from anyone to these questions, I don't care what you say on the net. I know my answers to them. A man owes it to his family and himself to asses his abilities honestly.

Were stronger together than divided. Why not? Why spill blood if we can win without spilling a drop? Do and say what you will, but check yourself first, you may be part of the problem. If the shoe fits.....

[Will H]

Uh... I did not say anything about killing anyone. All I said was that, in my opinion, being antigun is a vastly large part of the democrat platform. I don't think that is hard to prove. Like you I [b][i]think[/i][/b] there are anti-gun Republicans out there, but I cannot guarantee that there are. They seem to keep it low toned if they exist at all.

The point is that I can not see how someone can all themselves Democrat and at the same time try to speak of unity to the 2A community. I am not trying to offend here, but being a democrat is part of the problem because that is the party seeking to ban our rights. You cannot sit in the mud and not get muddy, just like you cannot, in my opinion, be a Pro 2A democrat.

I could understand if the republicans were treading on the 1A. You know, like trying to make legislation labeling hate speech, or things like that. I myself feel the 1A is more important than the 2A, but that is the only thing that is more important.The Prez made his intentions clear during the last debate speaking of the AR ban and mentioning pistols. If someone saw that and still voted for him they are not Pro 2A. They are just Democrats that happen to "like guns." Edited November 13, 2012 by Will H

[Guest FIST]

[quote name='Will H' timestamp='1352819623' post='844813']
Uh... I did not say anything about killing anyone. All I said was that, in my opinion, being antigun is a vastly large part of the democrat platform. I don't think that is hard to prove. Like you I [b][i]think[/i][/b] there are anti-gun Republicans out there, but I cannot guarantee that there are. They seem to keep it low toned if they exist at all.

The point is that I can not see how someone can all themselves Democrat and at the same time try to speak of unity to the 2A community. I am not trying to offend here, but being a democrat is part of the problem because that is the party seeking to ban our rights. You cannot sit in the mud and not get muddy, just like you cannot, in my opinion, be a Pro 2A democrat.

I could understand if the republicans were treading on the 1A. You know, like trying to make legislation labeling hate speech, or things like that. I myself feel the 1A is more important than the 2A, but that is the only thing that is more important.The Prez made his intentions clear during the last debate speaking of the AR ban and mentioning pistols. If someone saw that and still voted for him they are not Pro 2A. They are just Democrats that happen to "like guns."
[/quote]

I apologize for the last paragraph, it wasn't directed towards you.

If its possible that anti 2A R's exist that their polar opposite could as well? Im not a dem but I see value in keeping the firearms community as tight knit as possible.

[Jonnin]

Yea its really tempting to start an anti-sniper-rifle campaign (deer rifles to us normal folks) just to stir up these so called gun friendly hunting rifle only demorats. Maybe if THEIR guns are a target, they will understand a little better. Not tempting enough to DO it, but tempting because I wonder if any of them would actually see the light.