Adding a vertical foregrip to an AR "pistol"

[Dolomite_supafly]

I don't doubt you for a second... I do want to know how that is not a Short Barrel Shotgun/NFA? I am confused there.

 

A shotgun, or rifle, by definition has a shoulder stock. The one above does not have, and did not start with, one. Therefore it is not, and never was, a "shotgun". So if it is not a "shotgun" then does it meet the definition of "pistol"? A pistol requires rifling in the bore so it does not meet the definition of a "pistol". So if the gun pictured does not meet the requirements for "shotgun" or "pistol" or "rifle" then by default it only needs to meet definition of "firearm" so it only has one requirement. It must be 26" or longer overall so doesn't require NFA registration. There is not barrel length requirement for a "firearm", only the minimum overall length.

 

Also, if the gun pictured was under 26" it would not be a SBS, because it does not have a shoulder stock, but it would be a AOW. But that is only if it was under 26" overall. A shotgun can be over 26" and still be a NFA item if the barrel is under 18". Because the gun pictured did not start life as a "shotgun" and it only need to be 26" regardless of barrel length.

 

A SBS is required to either have a shoulder stock or started life with a shoulder stock. And there is no overall length requirement for a SBS only a barrel length of under 18".

 

And in order for a shotgun to be a SBS it must start life as a shotgun and by definition a shotgun is required to have a should stock. There is no such thing as a short barreled "firearm". Only SBR or SBS and both of those require a shoulder stock as part of the definition and the one pictured does not have a shoulder stock therefore it does not meet the requirement for a SBS.

 

I have posted ATF letters regarding that specific "firearm". They say it is NOT a SBS and it IS a firearm. The gun sent to the ATF had a 14" barrel and a overall length of 26"+. the ATF stated it did not require registration because it did not meet the definition of "rifle", "shotgun" or "pistol".

[TripleDigitRide]

If the muzzle device is to be considered part of the OAL of 26" for an AR pistol, does it need to be pinned or welded?

[Oh Shoot]

If the muzzle device is to be considered part of the OAL of 26" for an AR pistol, does it need to be pinned or welded?

 

Yes. Actually it's pinned and welded over the holes or welded alone to certain spec.

 

- OS

Edited October 13, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

If it not pinned then it must be either fused using a welder or it must be fused using solder that exceeds 1,100 degrees.

 

The easiest to remove would be to pin it then weld over the pin. To remove you just need to grind down past the weld and release the pin then spin the flash hider off. You will destroy the flash hider in the process but it is cheaper than destroying the flash hider AND the barrel.

[TMF]

If it not pinned then it must be either fused using a welder or it must be fused using solder that exceeds 1,100 degrees.

I always wondered how this was even enforceable. If high temp solder was used they couldn't simply throw your upper in a vise block and take your muzzle device off; they'd need equipment to heat up your gun (and potentially permanently damage the barrel) and attempt to take it off. So how would they even be able to check if it was 600 degree solder?

[Oh Shoot]

I always wondered how this was even enforceable. If high temp solder was used they couldn't simply throw your upper in a vise block and take your muzzle device off; they'd need equipment to heat up your gun (and potentially permanently damage the barrel) and attempt to take it off. So how would they even be able to check if it was 600 degree solder?

 

Likely an individual has never been charged with "wrong type of weld".  Guessing spec was perhaps added to control manufacturing, but dunno.

 

- OS

Edited October 14, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[MacGyver]

I'm with Mac here, guessing that no one has ever been charged, but if the wanted to check composition, it's a pretty easy task on an x-Ray machine set up to do fluoroscopy.

[TMF]

I'm with Mac here, guessing that no one has ever been charged, but if the wanted to check composition, it's a pretty easy task on an x-Ray machine set up to do fluoroscopy.

 

Ha, I suppose that's a long way to go to want to get someone on the hook, but then again, there's that whole Randy Weaver thing.  It would be interesting to see the numbers on people convicted of NFA violations who weren't otherwise engaged in actual criminal activity.

[East_TN_Patriot]

A shotgun, or rifle, by definition has a shoulder stock. The one above does not have, and did not start with, one. Therefore it is not, and never was, a "shotgun". So if it is not a "shotgun" then does it meet the definition of "pistol"? A pistol requires rifling in the bore so it does not meet the definition of a "pistol". So if the gun pictured does not meet the requirements for "shotgun" or "pistol" or "rifle" then by default it only needs to meet definition of "firearm" so it only has one requirement. It must be 26" or longer overall so doesn't require NFA registration. There is not barrel length requirement for a "firearm", only the minimum overall length.
 
Also, if the gun pictured was under 26" it would not be a SBS, because it does not have a shoulder stock, but it would be a AOW. But that is only if it was under 26" overall. A shotgun can be over 26" and still be a NFA item if the barrel is under 18". Because the gun pictured did not start life as a "shotgun" and it only need to be 26" regardless of barrel length.
 
A SBS is required to either have a shoulder stock or started life with a shoulder stock. And there is no overall length requirement for a SBS only a barrel length of under 18".
 
And in order for a shotgun to be a SBS it must start life as a shotgun and by definition a shotgun is required to have a should stock. There is no such thing as a short barreled "firearm". Only SBR or SBS and both of those require a shoulder stock as part of the definition and the one pictured does not have a shoulder stock therefore it does not meet the requirement for a SBS.
 
I have posted ATF letters regarding that specific "firearm". They say it is NOT a SBS and it IS a firearm. The gun sent to the ATF had a 14" barrel and a overall length of 26"+. the ATF stated it did not require registration because it did not meet the definition of "rifle", "shotgun" or "pistol".

Sweet geezuz! Who's on third?

[JamesZ28]

On 3/31/2013 at 11:43 AM, Dolomite_supafly said:

I'm not an expert in the law but you appear to have a standard buffer tube that has the ability to affix the adjustable stock to. I've read the ATF can still tag you for an SBR. You might want to get a standard pistol tube that does not have the ability to receive the stock.

He is perfectly legal according to the ATF.

   Where this comes into play is the mil spec buffer tubes are longer than the buffer tubes that come with the adjustable armbraces,    the ATF also will measure length of pull to determine pistol status, over 13.5" puts it in SBR territory,  there have been more than a few articles about it now since the Honey Badger cease and desist last month