traffic stop - consent question-

[101]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1352221202' post='840066']
One of the things I've noticed about some firearm enthusiasts is that some seem to have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to LEO. We all know there are "bad cops" out there who will stomp all over our "rights" and/or who on on some kind of power trip but whether the LEO is right or wrong, the side of the road is NEVER the place for such things to be decided.

Statements like "[i]Where in the Constitution does it say my rights can be trampled on so someone who knowingly accepted a dangerous job could feel all warm and fuzzy[/i]?" reflect an attitude that will, in my opinion, not serve one well long-term no matter how many times one has been pulled over with no problems.
[/quote]

Nowhere did I say to argue with cops on the side of the road. Handle yourself as you see fit. Just because someone expects someone else to do their job properly makes me a problem? When you get a hair cut, do you expect it to be right? When you go out to eat do you expect it to be prepared how you pay for it? When you buy a car do you expect it to perform like it should? When your house is on fire, do you expect the fire department you pay for to show up and do their job properly? Why does everyone want to give cops a free pass when they piss on our rights, because they want to be safer? Hold them to the standard they accepted and took an Oath to follow. What is so wrong about that? Edited November 6, 2012 by 101

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352222243' post='840081']...Just because someone expects someone else to do their job properly makes me a problem?
[/quote]

I didn't say you were a problem but what you've said and more to the point, how you've said it, leads me to think that you are going to have one.

It's just an observation and I hope I'm wrong. Edited November 6, 2012 by RobertNashville

[mikegideon]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352222243' post='840081']
Nowhere did I say to argue with cops on the side of the road. Handle yourself as you see fit. Just because someone expects someone else to do their job properly makes me a problem? When you get a hair cut, do you expect it to be right? When you go out to eat do you expect it to be prepared how you pay for it? When you buy a car do you expect it to perform like it should? When your house is on fire, do you expect the fire department you pay for to show up and do their job properly? Why does everyone want to give cops a free pass when they piss on our rights, because they want to be safer? Hold them to the standard they accepted and took an Oath to follow. What is so wrong about that?
[/quote]

The law allows them to disarm you for their safety in this state. Their choice, not yours.

[101]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1352222598' post='840085']


The law allows them to disarm you for their safety in this state. Their choice, not yours.
[/quote]

Agreed. My bad, I veered away from original topic. I was talking about a multitude of problems with cops than disarming. If the law gives them that ability, which it does, then they can follow it. If we don't like that law, we get the law changed.

[Guest ochretoe]

101 if we all got safe jobs and quit policing who would protect your rights to moan and bitch about everything? And who would be there to pull your butt out of the fire when your mouth writes a check your butt can't cash. If you are not or have not been in the military, police dept, fire dept. you have no idea of what it means to put your life on the line for a total stranger. Just because we are paid does not make us less than you. And even though you portray yourself as a complete ass I would still do my job and protect you just like the fireman and the soldier. You have a right to your views and I will say no more. Good luck in life, I think you may need it. Edited November 6, 2012 by ochretoe

[mikegideon]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352222901' post='840089']
Agreed. My bad, I veered away from original topic. I was talking about a multitude of problems with cops than disarming. If the law gives them that ability, which it does, then they can follow it. If we don't like that law, we get the law changed.
[/quote]

I don't like "bad" cops any more than the next guy. I've bumped into a few over the years. I've even consented to a search in the past, when my car matched a description. I won't consent when it's a fishing expedition. With all that said, I have quite a bit of respect for what cops do, and have seen a lot more good than bad. I'll normally do everything I can to make their job easier. If I don't get a fair shake, I'll take it up with somebody above them after the stop ends. They have the upper hand during a stop.

[101]

[quote name='ochretoe' timestamp='1352223024' post='840092']
101 if we all got safe jobs and quit policing who would protect your rights to moan and bitch about everything? And who would be there to pull your butt out of the fire when your mouth writes a check your butt can't cash. If you are not or have not been in the military, police dept, fire dept. you have no idea of what it means to put your life on the line for a total stranger. Just because we are paid does not make us less than you. And even though you portray yourself as a complete ass I would still do my job and protect you just like the fireman and the soldier. You have a right to your views and I will say no more. Good luck in life, I think you may need it.
[/quote]

Six years in the Army. I have more than paid my dues. That is why I get so frustrated with people like you that justify trampling on citizens rights.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352223826' post='840101']
Six years in the Army. I have more than paid my dues. That is why I get so frustrated with people like you that justify trampling on citizens rights.
[/quote]I wonder....how "much" do you have to pay before you've "paid your dues"? Is there a set point at which one can stop and then just sit back and leave the work of being a citizen to others?

[Guest ochretoe]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352223826' post='840101']
Six years in the Army. I have more than paid my dues. That is why I get so frustrated with people like you that justify trampling on citizens rights.
[/quote]

Did you not just admit that you were wrong with the suspension of rights by disarming?
"Agreed. My bad, I veered away from original topic. I was talking about a multitude of problems with cops than disarming. If the law gives them that ability, which it does, then they can follow it. If we don't like that law, we get the law changed."

So how do I trample any rights by doing my job? I think your hate for my profession has clouded your judgment. And since you mentioned it,

"Six years in the Army."

Thank you for your service.

[101]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1352224056' post='840105']
I wonder....how "much" do you have to pay before you've "paid your dues"? Is there a set point at which one can stop and then just sit back and leave the work of being a citizen to others?
[/quote]

Paid my dues. Meaning myself and others like me have deposited a form of payment to their Country. We now have a special interest in what happens in this Country. The work never ends. The dues never expire. All citizens work is never done.

[Caster]

Cops don't give me any grief whatsoever. It's all in your attitude. With that, I think if I am ever faced with a situation where they want to search my vehicle I'm going to ask the officer

[i]"If you will concede the fact that you don't have a right to search me or my vehicle, [u]ON THE RECORD[/u] then you can look at whatever you feel you need to."[/i]


I wonder if that would fly? I don't have anything they can't look at. I just want them to admit they don't have a right to be poking in my personal property. Edited November 6, 2012 by Caster

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352225676' post='840119']
Paid my dues. Meaning myself and others like me have deposited a form of payment to their Country. We now have a special interest in what happens in this Country. The work never ends. The dues never expire. All citizens work is never done.
[/quote]The question was prompted because in post #32 you said you had "more than paid your dues"...that statement seems to be in conflict with what you just said here.

[101]

[quote name='ochretoe' timestamp='1352225215' post='840115']


Did you not just admit that you were wrong with the suspension of rights by disarming?
"Agreed. My bad, I veered away from original topic. I was talking about a multitude of problems with cops than disarming. If the law gives them that ability, which it does, then they can follow it. If we don't like that law, we get the law changed."

So how do I trample any rights by doing my job? I think your hate for my profession has clouded your judgment. And since you mentioned it,

"Six years in the Army."

Thank you for your service.
[/quote]

I did not admit I was wrong. I agreed that the law simply states that a police officer may under the guise of law, passed at the legislative level, the right to trample our rights. The law needs to be changed. My rant was off topic, and more addressed at the other nefarious ways policemen trample our rights. I was wrong for going so far off topic.

Thank you also for your service also. I am not trying to bash anyone or their profession. I'm simply saying that too many times police get a free pass on trampling rights in the name of safety. More safety = less freedom.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352225676' post='840119']
Paid my dues. Meaning myself and others like me have deposited a form of payment to their Country. We now have a special interest in what happens in this Country. The work never ends. The dues never expire. All citizens work is never done.
[/quote]
I have two honorable discharges, volunteered during Vietnam, and served my country as a Police Officer. If any of that matters.

I can only speak for myself, but I was very well trained. Trained well enough to know that if I have a "gut feeling" something was wrong I acted on it. Disarming a person that you feel is a possible danger is for his safety also. It keeps you from having to kill him if he does something stupid, and it reduces his chances of shooting you while you are dealing with the ticket, accident, arrest, whatever. Bad people shoot cops on traffic stops and Police Officers will never (Hopefully) be required to wait until guns are pulled to act.

[101]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1352226051' post='840122']
The question was prompted because in post #32 you said you had "more than paid your dues"...that statement seems to be in conflict with what you just said here.
[/quote]

More than paid, means I feel I have served, and added alot more than what was expected of me. Anyone that goes above and beyond the scope of what is expected of them has paid their dues and then some.

Thank you for the banter Robert. I must go to work now. I've been following you around the forums long enough to know that you love to dance in the world of bickering and try to turn the meanings and intent of comments upside down. We will be at this all day. Enjoy.

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352226304' post='840125']
I'm simply saying that too many times police get a free pass on trampling rights in the name of safety. More safety = less freedom.
[/quote]

You do realize officers have the right to secure that weapon in your possession? It is because anyone, including you, in this state with a firearm on their person is committing a crime. An officer has the right to treat you like a criminal until they determine you have a valid reason to have that firearm.

Again, you [u]ARE[/u] a criminal (intent to go armed) in this state when you have a firearm in your possession. It is just you cannot be charged because a defense is having a HCP.

Dolomite

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1352226760' post='840134']...Thank you for the banter Robert. I must go to work now. I've been following you around the forums long enough to know that you love to dance in the world of bickering and try to turn the meanings and intent of comments upside down.[/quote]

You've been following me around???

You need a better hobby! ROTFLMAO Edited November 6, 2012 by RobertNashville

[daddyo]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1352219318' post='840044']
Based on the above, I wouldn't be surprised if, some day, you have an unhappy traffic stop encounter with a LEO that we'll all read about here.
[/quote]

Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Edited November 6, 2012 by DaddyO

[E4 No More]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352226681' post='840132']
I have two honorable discharges, volunteered during Vietnam, and served my country as a Police Officer. If any of that matters.

I can only speak for myself, but I was very well trained. Trained well enough to know that if I have a "gut feeling" something was wrong I acted on it. Disarming a person that you feel is a possible danger is for his safety also. It keeps you from having to kill him if he does something stupid, and it reduces his chances of shooting you while you are dealing with the ticket, accident, arrest, whatever. Bad people shoot cops on traffic stops and Police Officers will never (Hopefully) be required to wait until guns are pulled to act.
[/quote]And what is, historically, the most dangerous thing a police officer does? When I was a cop it was the traffic stop, and there was no such thing as a routine traffic stop.

[piercedan]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1352223658' post='840097']
I don't like "bad" cops any more than the next guy. I've bumped into a few over the years. I've even consented to a search in the past, when my car matched a description. I won't consent when it's a fishing expedition. With all that said, I have quite a bit of respect for what cops do, and have seen a lot more good than bad. I'll normally do everything I can to make their job easier. If I don't get a fair shake, I'll take it up with somebody above them after the stop ends. They have the upper hand during a stop.
[/quote]

When I am stopped on a rare occasion, I am always courteous and professional. I say sir a lot, keep my hands visible, have my information ready, never make fast or unexpected movements, and I hand my HCP to the office along with my license. Usually I get respect back from the officer. That being said, I've run into some a holes. I've had my rights violated.

A couple of years ago, I was coming down I40 between Memphis and Jackson, heading toward Nashville. It was early in the morning, about 4:30 or so. I came through the usual "trap" area around mile marker 25. Although the speedometer said 68, I figured I'd be okay with the limit being 65. I was wrong.

The white SUV pulled me over and the officer came to the passenger side. We exchanged the usual conversation on why I was stopped, speed along with window tint (they weren't tinted at all). While we were talking, he kept looking at the large boxes in the back seat. He said that he would not cite me for the speed, but then asked if I would consent to a search of my vehicle. I politely said no. He then said he would run his K9 around the outside. He got me out and had me stand behind the vehicle with another officer.

Now, I spent eight years in law enforcement. I've had several K9 handlers as friends. I've helped with their training scenarios, caught dogs with sleeves, and know the procedure for presenting an area for the dog to inspect. I also know about rewards and when they are given.

I watched the dog. He never alerted. He never showed interest. When he was done, the officer returned him to the vehicle with no reward. He then returned and told me the dog had alerted. I looked at him in amazement and he said, "You didn't see him trying to tear the door off the car?". I said no, because he hadn't.

I knew what was going on at that point. This officer wanted to look in those boxes. He was prepared to violate my rights to do it, and he did. Of course, the boxes had parts for ultrasound systems that I had been working on. When he was done, my suitcase was ransacked, the boxes were unpacked and disheveled, and I had been violated and detained for 30 minutes for no reason.

This guy was a bad cop who was prepared to wipe his feet on the constitution. I was powerless and felt betrayed. This is why I don't trust law enforcement automatically. This is why I will not consent to a search and will not volunteer any information other than what I am required to do. There are too many of these guys mixed in with the good cops to let my guard down.

Call me cynical, but it seems to be getting worse. We seem to be militarizing out law enforcement at an alarming rate.

[mikegideon]

Ah... the old dog trick. They better find some dope (which they won't), or I WILL kick that one up as high as I can kick it, just not on the side of the road. That practice needs to be stopped. Not dope dogs, but the false alert BS so they can search without a warrant.

[E4 No More]

[quote name='piercedan' timestamp='1352228484' post='840153']
When I am stopped on a rare occasion, I am always courteous and professional. I say sir a lot, keep my hands visible, have my information ready, never make fast or unexpected movements, and I hand my HCP to the office along with my license. Usually I get respect back from the officer. That being said, I've run into some a holes. I've had my rights violated.

A couple of years ago, I was coming down I40 between Memphis and Jackson, heading toward Nashville. It was early in the morning, about 4:30 or so. I came through the usual "trap" area around mile marker 25. Although the speedometer said 68, I figured I'd be okay with the limit being 65. I was wrong.

The white SUV pulled me over and the officer came to the passenger side. We exchanged the usual conversation on why I was stopped, speed along with window tint (they weren't tinted at all). While we were talking, he kept looking at the large boxes in the back seat. He said that he would not cite me for the speed, but then asked if I would consent to a search of my vehicle. I politely said no. He then said he would run his K9 around the outside. He got me out and had me stand behind the vehicle with another officer.

Now, I spent eight years in law enforcement. I've had several K9 handlers as friends. I've helped with their training scenarios, caught dogs with sleeves, and know the procedure for presenting an area for the dog to inspect. I also know about rewards and when they are given.

I watched the dog. He never alerted. He never showed interest. When he was done, the officer returned him to the vehicle with no reward. He then returned and told me the dog had alerted. I looked at him in amazement and he said, "You didn't see him trying to tear the door off the car?". I said no, because he hadn't.

I knew what was going on at that point. This officer wanted to look in those boxes. He was prepared to violate my rights to do it, and he did. Of course, the boxes had parts for ultrasound systems that I had been working on. When he was done, my suitcase was ransacked, the boxes were unpacked and disheveled, and I had been violated and detained for 30 minutes for no reason.

This guy was a bad cop who was prepared to wipe his feet on the constitution. I was powerless and felt betrayed. This is why I don't trust law enforcement automatically. This is why I will not consent to a search and will not volunteer any information other than what I am required to do. There are too many of these guys mixed in with the good cops to let my guard down.

Call me cynical, but it seems to be getting worse. We seem to be militarizing out law enforcement at an alarming rate.
[/quote]
You know, now days for about $300 you can purchase a GPS audio/video recorder that records a couple of hours to a card for such encounters. It records both directions.

[TLRMADE]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know the TN law. But can't you record your interaction with a Leo as long as you let him know you are recording him for your safety and for his?

[Guest ochretoe]

[quote name='TLRMADE' timestamp='1352229300' post='840163']
Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know the TN law. But can't you record your interaction with a Leo as long as you let him know you are recording him for your safety and for his?
[/quote]

Federal law states that in a given conversation, face to face, only one of the parties needs to know the conversation is being recorded. State law follows this. In audio(phone or radio) recording the non recording person must be advised. This is without warrants of course. With cell phones there is no expectation of privacy because it is easy to tap into airwave calls.

I have been recorded twice without my knowledge. Both times in court they tried to use just part of the conversation against me. The judge made the defence play the whole reording, which worked in my favor. If you use the recording be prepared to have the whole recording played in court. But it is a very good tool, especially in speed trap areas or where the cops are less than honorable. Edited November 6, 2012 by ochretoe

[Dolomite_supafly]

You are not required to notify all parties when recording.

Dolomite