Marine Corps helicopter pilot sues over Wyo. traffic stop

[mikegideon]

[quote name='LagerHead' timestamp='1352214708' post='839993']
I can't argue that. I do think he should have just answered the question, especially since he was open carrying and it was painfully obvious that he was in fact carrying. That being said, if I end up in handcuffs there needs to be a lawful reason.
[/quote]

And, the cop may deserve a spanking. But, a lawsuit is downright Kwikish.

[daddyo]

Those of you who think both were at fault, exactly what did the marine pilot do wrong?

[Spots]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1352227194' post='840138']
Those of you who think both were at fault, exactly what did the marine pilot do wrong?
[/quote]

He argued with the gestapo on the most dangerous of all black ops missions....the traffic stop

[JAB]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1352162414' post='839673']
Why do some LEOs have such an issue with a citizen knowing and exercising his rights? Is it little man syndrome, or is it just that they believe that a citizen should just do whatever they say without questioning it, whether it violates someone's constitutional rights or not?
[/quote]

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of a line from an old Clash song, "You have the right to free speech - as long as your not dumb enough to actually try it."

[E4 No More]

Personally, I'd like to know the legality of placing someone in handcuffs without ANY probable cause of them committing a crime. In my day as a LEO it would be considered a violation of their civil rights. Being an asshat is not necessarily a crime. Contempt of cop is also not a crime.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='SWJewellTN' timestamp='1352228713' post='840155']
Personally, I'd like to know the legality of placing someone in handcuffs without ANY probable cause of them committing a crime. In my day as a LEO it would be considered a violation of their civil rights. Being an asshat is not necessarily a crime. Contempt of cop is also not a crime.
[/quote]

May not be legal to secure his weapon any other way (in that state)? Didn't the guy refuse to let the cop take control of his weapon?

[E4 No More]

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1352229321' post='840164']
May not be legal to secure his weapon any other way (in that state)? Didn't the guy refuse to let the cop take control of his weapon?
[/quote]Don't know, but thought it worth the asking. When I was a cop there was no HCP or equivalent in Missouri, but one could open carry all they wanted. I wouldn't have reacted that way; just instructed the fellow to make no sudden movements towards the gun. My gun hand would be sitting on my weapon too.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Flatwoods Forge' timestamp='1352228315' post='840150']
He argued with the gestapo on the most dangerous of all black ops missions....the traffic stop
[/quote]

We have somewhat limited information about all that happened...we don't have video, just audio and apparently, audio edited by the marine.

I think the various cops overacted and I think the marine didn't do himself any favors.

It will be interesting to see where this lawsuit goes (although by then, none of us here will likely remember this thread).

[Guest MilitiaMan]

[quote name='Paladin132' timestamp='1352163372' post='839686']
I am concerned that more and more we see officers that would rather treat every citizen as a suspect rather than a fellow citizen. Police are civilians too. They need to realize that just because someone is armed does not equate to reasonable suspicion or probable cause for anything.

The fact that the supervisor ordered him released tells me there wasn't anything to it more than likely - officers have a litany of things they can arrest for if they are angry.

[b]Some police I think are scared of citizens from the time they go onto the road until they come off. That is unhealthy for them as well as society.[/b]
[/quote]


You hit the nail on the head with the bolded comment.

[TrickyNicky]

I think this is a case of neither being wrong, but that sure doesn't make either of them right.

Trooper could have handled himself a lot better and I probably wouldn't have tried to justified those actions by comparing what happens in IRAQ with what's supposed to happen here in AMERICA.

Having said that the pilot should have just answered the question and taken it from there. Also doesn't help his case when he when refuses to consent to a search for weapons when in his own words his sidearm is out in the open for the world to see.

I call epic fail on both parties.

[JAB]

[quote name='TrickyNicky' timestamp='1352236699' post='840293']Also doesn't help his case when he when refuses to consent to a search for weapons when in his own words his sidearm is out in the open for the world to see.
[/quote]

Why should he consent to a search if he is/was doing nothing wrong? Just because someone with a badge said so?

[TrickyNicky]

[quote name='JAB' timestamp='1352241244' post='840360']


Why should he consent to a search if he is/was doing nothing wrong? Just because someone with a badge said so?
[/quote]

No, your taking what I said wrong. I've been pulled over probably five times and NEVER consented to a search.

What I'm saying is that there is no search needed because the gun is out in the open "for the whole world to see"

So saying I don't consent to a search is just kind of backwards for someone open carrying, by choosing that course of action you've negated the need for a search.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1352227194' post='840138']
Those of you who think both were at fault, exactly what did the marine pilot do wrong?
[/quote]
He answered the question “Do you have any weapons” with the statement “I do not consent to any searches”. That is not the answer of a normal citizen. To have someone answer like that and then the Officer see the gun; I wouldn’t have had a problem with it if the Officer put him on the pavement at gun point until his back-up arrived. The guy wanted a problem… he found it. Luckily no one had to die.

[Spots]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352249402' post='840464']
He answered the question “Do you have any weapons” with the statement “I do not consent to any searches”. That is not the answer of a normal citizen. To have someone answer like that and then the Officer see the gun; I wouldn’t have had a problem with it if the Officer put him on the pavement at gun point until his back-up arrived. The guy wanted a problem… he found it. Luckily no one had to die.
[/quote]

What if that was your wife facedown at gun point, for LEGALLY carrying a firearm, and simple answering that she wouldn't consent to a search? I'm just sick of [u][b]SOME[/b][/u] police officers feeling that they can stomp all over someone elses rights because the person is a smartass. Guess what, not everyone in this world is a nice person, but last time I checked there is nothing illegal about being a ***** to a police officer. I didn't say it was smart, but its not illegal. The cop was in the wrong, period. He hand cuffed someone without having any reasonable need. He felt that he would prove whos **** was bigger on the side of the road by putting a "smart mouthed gunowner" in his place. That was proved by the fact that the supervisor turned the man loose and sent him on his way. Maybe that police officer should remember that they work for US. We pay their bills, we put food on their tables, and we elect their bosses. They are citizens just like we are. I'm not like most people on this forum. I think that the law enforcement profession is 90% power tripping wanna be heros, and 10% decent people.

[Guest mcgyver210]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1352157408' post='839603']
Okay...at first blush, I don't see this as some big breech of this marine's rights.

Regardless of our "rights" and regardless of whether the state we are in at the moment does or doesn't allow open carry and/or constitutional carry; I don't think it should be difficult to understand that when an officer stops us, whether he was or wasn't justified in doing so, it's not unreasonable that the officer may be concerned about the fact that we are armed and may be overly cautious.

I guess what I'm saying is that both this marine and this officer could benefit from some relaxation techniques.


In the meantime; I'll listen to this again...maybe I missed something.



[/quote]


Interesting reasoning you said so with the same reasoning & the very public incidents of officers in some cases I could argue I am uncomfortable with any officer/s being armed in my presence with no truly impartial witnesses or protections especially if said officer decides it is good to handcuff me leaving me defenseless against his possible motives.

Far fetched maybe, but what is good for the officer to assume is good for me also. Remember the Officer not the citizen has everything on his side & his or her word is given more credibility just because & even if he or she is wrong or worse he or she will not be treated or punished equally under the law.

[TrickyNicky]

I would say the opposite, 90% good people who want to help make a positive difference in their community's and 10% bung holes.
The problem is we don't get the opportunity to hear about all the great things that LEO do for people around the country everyday, all we hear are the problems.
Having both parents being former LE and an uncle still serving I may be a bit biased though.

[daddyo]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352249402' post='840464']
He answered the question “Do you have any weapons” with the statement “I do not consent to any searches”. That is not the answer of a normal citizen. To have someone answer like that and then the Officer see the gun; I wouldn’t have had a problem with it if the Officer put him on the pavement at gun point until his back-up arrived. The guy wanted a problem… he found it. Luckily no one had to die.
[/quote]

Explain how a citizen exercising his 4th amendment right is not normal. You seem to be suggesting that the LEO would have been justified in shooting him simply for not answering his question. How absurd.

Is that the kind of cop you are?

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352249402' post='840464']
.....
[/quote]

[img]http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/additional/carousel/8753_meh_together.jpg[/img]

[Seabeejason]

Even though the Marine seemed a bit assertive, the LEO had absolutely no right to cuff him...PERIOD. The Marine may have been assertive because he is a MARINE. The LEO was not aware of the laws in his own state and cuffed the individual just so he would feel safe. That is not a reason to cuff someone. You cuff someone to detain them for doing something ILLEGAL.

There were no laws broken here. The LEO was wrong. End of story.

Most LEO's do a great job. This is a small example of an LEO making a poor decision. He should not be fired for it, but I hope he at least learns from it. Edited November 7, 2012 by Seabeejason

[DaveTN]

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1352250524' post='840476']
Explain how a citizen exercising his 4th amendment right is not normal. You seem to be suggesting that the LEO would have been justified in shooting him simply for not answering his question. How absurd.

Is that the kind of cop you are?
[/quote]
I’m not a cop; haven’t been for many years. And if you read what I posted and interpreted it as me saying I thought it was okay to shoot him for not answering the question; then there’s no point in you and I continuing the discussion.

[MiddTennTaco]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352256048' post='840563']
I’m not a cop; haven’t been for many years. And if you read what I posted and interpreted it as me saying I thought it was okay to shoot him for not answering the question; then there’s no point in you and I continuing the discussion.[/quote]

Well put.

Sent from my HTC Inspire using Tapatalk 2

[Pain103]

[quote name='Flatwoods Forge' timestamp='1352249852' post='840467']
I'm not like most people on this forum. I think that the law enforcement profession is 90% power tripping wanna be heros, and 10% decent people.
[/quote]

That's a pretty ignorant statement unless you know all 100% of the law enforcement officers in the world and could prove that. You are entitled to you opinion but it would be like me saying everyone in East Tn are crazy. I can't prove this and don't believe they are but it's just a blanket statement like yours made of discontent and opinion rather than fact. Oh well the world moves on whether you like the police or not but the cop hating bandwagon gets old.

[mikegideon]

[quote name='Pain103' timestamp='1352292727' post='840919']
That's a pretty ignorant statement
[/quote]

Yep.

[Spots]

You are correct it is my opinion. I don't ask or expect anyone else to agree with it. It comes from my experiences in over 20 states of this country, plus experience in several other countries. I have met good and decent cops before, there are several on this forum. I have also met way more cops who strap that badge on, and assume that they are better than you, and that you will do what they say because they have the POWER. These kinds of people are attracted to the law enforcement profession for the wrong reasons, and plenty of them end up out in the field. I've never been arrested, I've never been to jail, and I've had one speeding ticket my whole life. So why such a messed up view? Because I've been told that the cops were to busy to come and take an attempted rape report for my sister when she was barely out of high school. They said it was no big deal because the guy couldn't get in the car to touch her. Didn't stop it from wrecking her emotions and scarying the hell out of her. Yep my dad went to the courthouse with that one. I've seen one to many cops flick their lights on to run a redlight, then right back off and pull into a restaurant or etc. I've been passed by to many police officers busting the speed limit with no lights on, talking on cell phones. I've been talked down to by way to many cops for being a younger guy with a shaggy beard and hair. Then all of a sudeen they find out I was prior military, and its all "Thank yous". Why don't they treat everyone with that respect? Your a public servant, you should treat the young man who needs a haircut with the same courteous and respect as you do the veteran. I get sick and tired of cops complaining about how dangerous their job is. You don't like the danger? Get outta the profession. I was a Marine for 5 years, and never once did I complain or expect special treatment because it was a dangerous line of work. I did what was expected of me, and I went home, and came back at it the next day. Cops want my respect? Then try acting like your here to protect the citizens, the ones who pay your bills. You turn yourselves into the bad guys being nasty to the people you meet, and trying to lord over people like your better than they are because you have a plastic badge and a chip on your shoulder. If your a good cop, and you know it, ignore this. If your a bad one, maybe you should rethink your profession for the good of the world. Edited November 7, 2012 by Flatwoods Forge

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Flatwoods Forge' timestamp='1352305101' post='841033']You are correct it is my opinion. I don't ask or expect anyone else to agree with it. It comes from my experiences in over 20 states of this country, plus experience in several other countries....[/quote]

When I was 24, as your profile indicates you are now, I was about six years into eight years of active duty USN...I made some pretty all-encompassing assumptions because I thought I knew a lot about the world.

I was wrong.

Edited November 8, 2012 by RobertNashville