When does spanking become abuse?

[101]

It's funny how the people that complain about spanking seem to have the worst behaving children.

Short term pain and discomfort is the learning tool of life. Experiencing discomfort teaches humans to not do that again. Experience leads to wisdom.

My parents tried grounding me from things I liked. I just learned to do without and moved onto something else. When I was spanked I learned quickly not to do that again (or at least not get caught). Every human is different. We all respond differently to different things. Some kids need a stern look and some need a stern swat on the rear. To try and make this one size fits all crap and "OMG you're ruining your kids chi" because you spank him is horsecrap. To this day, I learn a good portion of lives' lessons from pain. Children are no exception.

[Murgatroy]

[quote name='personDJ' timestamp='1351999551' post='838691']
I can't believe how many think discpline is hitting or spanking. My god I can teach a dog how to behave without hitting and children are much smarter. If your child tears pages from a book then that child is not ready for a book, just take it away until you can teach the child how to handle a book. When a child acts up find out why and change that. Don't change the child by hitting. When it gets to the point that you must hit a child to make them act as you want then maybe it is the spanker that needs some learning
[/quote]I think it has become obvious as this point that you don't have children.

I am going to politely request that you STFU.

Maybe when you can pull your head out of you rectum, you will realize that the world operates on different frequencies for many different reasons.

I am sorry that you feel the need to attempt to belittle or insinuate that we are all poor parents because you don't understand where we come from.

Maybe you can find it in yourself to go and volunteer at some shelters for children without parents, or for those who have been taken away from their parents. Maybe then you will be able to understand the difference between discipline and abuse. Maybe go to a prison and perform a study and see how many there were raised without rules, with parents who weren't there, or those that were and they tried to 'reason' with their child as they grew.

But frankly, until you live a week in a parent shoes, I want you to keep your ignorant tree hugging liberal opinions to yourself. Or at the very least not use me as an example when you get on your flawed and jaded soapbox. Edited November 4, 2012 by Murgatroy

[Dolomite_supafly]

There is a difference between spanking and abuse, a BIG difference.

The idea of trying to reason with a young child is idiotic. Try reasoning with a two, three or four year old. Most don't have the language skills at that age to understand what you are even trying to say, much less understand your reasoning as an adult. They have ZERO attention span so by the time you finish one sentence they have forgetten the previous one. And because of that short attention span they need something just as short to deal with their negative actions. A quick swat on the butt, that likely won't even hurt but will startle them, along with a stern voice is what it takes to break their attention span. Some kids only need a spanking or two to correlate the tone of your voice to something bad. Heck some kids only need a quick "bark" at them to startle them into correction. Then after that all the child needs is the same tone of voice to stop them from doing what they are doing.

Children need to be disciplined, some more than others. If you don't then you are making sure your child will likely fail miserably in life. It is our job as parents to ensure our children are ready for the brutal world we live in. And that takes discipline as well as letting your child fail as often as needed to motivate them. If you try to make it seem like life is all flowers and rainbows then they are more than likely going to be a failure. I get sick of hearing "there are no losers and we are all winners" because the reality is there are losers and there are winners. If you raise a child to believe he is always a winner he will be a failure some day and when that day happens reality will crush him or her.

There is nothing wrong with spanking as long as it is applied with love. It is when the parents do not care for the child or become so upset that they loose the love for their child that it will become abuse.

Dolomite

[DaveTN]

I don’t think anyone here is saying that “spanking” is necessarily abuse. That’s a call for the cops to make when they arrive.

I was one of the cops that had to make that call. I never arrested anyone for spanking their child. But I did arrest a few for domestic violence when I saw bruises or welts from a belt on a child’s back or butt.

Hit your kid with something other than an open hand if you want to, but know that if another family member or a school teacher calls the cops; the chances are pretty good you are going to jail.

All of those I arrested were appalled at the idea that anyone would call them a bad parent. I generally told then to get over it and start making arrangements for bail; you don’t want to go into jail as a child abuser.

I am a parent and a Grandparent. Two kids, because I was beat as a child I never laid a hand on either of them; they turned out great. They don’t beat their kids either.

[Guest TNBrat]

Both my daughters remember me spanking them. And both have said that they will spank their children. My oldest, (shes 20) has gone so far as recommended spankings to Mothers in Walmart. And the youngest (18) comes home from work & raises hell about the stuff kids get away with at her work (she's a waitress).

I always ...
1. Waited till I was calmer
2. Have my girls tell me what they did wrong.
3. Tell them I love you but here's why you can't do that...& explain.
4. Use my bare hand on bare butt. So I could always feel how hard I was spanking them. I never wanted to hurt them just make sure that they felt the sting. Things that hurt sometimes leave a lasting memory. How do you learn not to touch hot stove …because last time you did it hurt…

My Brea said the other day "I always hated that but it worked."

Just one reason I've has to spank… someone asked… long story short...
Not matter what I did or where I put it, my daughter would NOT leave the curling iron alone. I finally spanked her & she never touched it again, thus avoiding burns.



TNBrat Hiding in the woods…

[Murgatroy]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352037941' post='838800']
I don’t think anyone here is saying that “spanking” is necessarily abuse. That’s a call for the cops to make when they arrive.


[/quote]

Read closer, Person DJ and Jesse are both claiming with a blanket statement that anyone that spanks a child is hitting them. No differentiation between discipline and abuse. If you hit, you hit, and you are a bad bad person.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='Murgatroy' timestamp='1352045958' post='838877']


Read closer, Person DJ and Jesse are both claiming with a blanket statement that anyone that spanks a child is hitting them. No differentiation between discipline and abuse. If you hit, you hit, and you are a bad bad person.
[/quote]
Like I say, that’s a call for the cops when/if they come, and then for the DA if they want to prosecute.

My point is that the under the domestic violence laws cops hands aren’t tied like they were years ago when DCFS had to handle everything. You hit your kid hard enough to leave a mark and I would have had no choice but to put you in cuffs and book you into the jail on domestic violence charges. I have been called to schools when the teachers found marks. The Judges and juries decide if its abuse or good parenting.

It’s an emotional topic. Some people believe that violence is not a tool that should be used in training kids or animals (me), and most people don’t want to be called bad parents when they think they are doing the right thing. Edited November 4, 2012 by DaveTN

[Murgatroy]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352046825' post='838887']
Like I say, that’s a call for the cops when/if they come, and then for the DA if they want to prosecute.

My point is that the under the domestic violence laws cops hands aren’t tied like they were years ago when DCFS had to handle everything. You hit your kid hard enough to leave a mark and I would have had no choice but to put you in cuffs and book you into the jail on domestic violence charges. I have been called to schools when the teachers found marks. The Judges and juries decide if its abuse or good parenting.

It’s an emotional topic. Some people believe that violence is not a tool that should be used in training kids or animals (me), and most people don’t want to be called bad parents when they think they are doing the right thing.
[/quote]First, thank you for trying to be calm and subjective in your disagreements.

You are right. It is an emotional topic.

But trying to explain what is right or wrong is not for you to judge either. Even if you do have that badge on your chest. If there are no marks, my daughter hasn't been harmed in any way other than alligator tears, who are you to tell me that my well behaved and adjusted child is abused, and that I am a parent who is not doing the right thing?

I fall very far over the line of those that are convinced that there is not enough discipline in the world. From parents who ignore their child in the grocery store and drop them off at the school to be raised, to the judges that allow hardened criminals to plea down to time served in violent crimes.

I suppose I am just flabbergasted when I see folks (again, that I must assume are not parents, since again, none of you have asserted that you in fact are) that are so solidly convinced that trying to raise a child to be polite, respectful and mindful of not only themselves, but others around them. I have lost count of the time that my daughter has looked at me when we are out an about, she will see a child somewhere throwing themselves in the floor, screaming, knocking things off the of the shelf, throwing a tantrum to end all tantrums. My daughter sees that, she looks at me and says "Gosh Daddy, I think he needs a whupping. Aren't you glad I don't act like that?" What my daughter doesn't see is the parent (usually a young mother) standing there watching their child act this way with mouth agape. After all, there is no way that it is her fault that Junior acts like this...

I work with my child because I love her. And yes, she has been known to get a spanking. But something you limp wristed non-parents need to understand is that my daughter is actually whupped maybe once a year. Not every day several times from the time she wakes up till she goes to sleep a quivering mass of frightened and abused human. That makes it too easy to imagine me being a bad parent. After all, I confess that do do this horrible evil deed. I must do it daily.

Dave, I am sorry if this came out heavily directed at you, I didn't mean for it to be. But as we admitted, this is an emotional topic.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

[quote name='Murgatroy' timestamp='1352007290' post='838735']
I think it has become obvious as this point that you don't have children.

I am going to politely request that you STFU.

Maybe when you can pull your head out of you rectum, you will realize that the world operates on different frequencies for many different reasons.

I am sorry that you feel the need to attempt to belittle or insinuate that we are all poor parents because you don't understand where we come from.

Maybe you can find it in yourself to go and volunteer at some shelters for children without parents, or for those who have been taken away from their parents. Maybe then you will be able to understand the difference between discipline and abuse. Maybe go to a prison and perform a study and see how many there were raised without rules, with parents who weren't there, or those that were and they tried to 'reason' with their child as they grew.

But frankly, until you live a week in a parent shoes, I want you to keep your ignorant tree hugging liberal opinions to yourself. Or at the very least not use me as an example when you get on your flawed and jaded soapbox.
[/quote]

I met ya before and you struck me as a big softy..

[DaveTN]

[quote name='Murgatroy' timestamp='1352047923' post='838896']
First, thank you for trying to be calm and subjective in your disagreements.

You are right. It is an emotional topic.

But trying to explain what is right or wrong is not for you to judge either. Even if you do have that badge on your chest. If there are no marks, my daughter hasn't been harmed in any way other than alligator tears, who are you to tell me that my well behaved and adjusted child is abused, and that I am a parent who is not doing the right thing?

I fall very far over the line of those that are convinced that there is not enough discipline in the world. From parents who ignore their child in the grocery store and drop them off at the school to be raised, to the judges that allow hardened criminals to plea down to time served in violent crimes.

I suppose I am just flabbergasted when I see folks (again, that I must assume are not parents, since again, none of you have asserted that you in fact are) that are so solidly convinced that trying to raise a child to be polite, respectful and mindful of not only themselves, but others around them. I have lost count of the time that my daughter has looked at me when we are out an about, she will see a child somewhere throwing themselves in the floor, screaming, knocking things off the of the shelf, throwing a tantrum to end all tantrums. My daughter sees that, she looks at me and says "Gosh Daddy, I think he needs a whupping. Aren't you glad I don't act like that?" What my daughter doesn't see is the parent (usually a young mother) standing there watching their child act this way with mouth agape. After all, there is no way that it is her fault that Junior acts like this...

I work with my child because I love her. And yes, she has been known to get a spanking. But something you limp wristed non-parents need to understand is that my daughter is actually whupped maybe once a year. Not every day several times from the time she wakes up till she goes to sleep a quivering mass of frightened and abused human. That makes it too easy to imagine me being a bad parent. After all, I confess that do do this horrible evil deed. I must do it daily.

Dave, I am sorry if this came out heavily directed at you, I didn't mean for it to be. But as we admitted, this is an emotional topic.
[/quote]

Don’t worry I’m not taking it personal as long as it stays a discussion. There is a fine line between abuse and discipline. But don’t think for one second that the cop doesn’t get to judge you. He is the only one that makes the decision whether you get arrested or not. Then you go through the cycle of being judged by the DA, jury, or Judge. “Child Abuse” is not something anyone wants to be labeled with or arrested for and no one is going to be quick to drop that charge.

You say you don’t leave marks on your kids, so a cop is probably not going to be involved. I’m talking about cases where the Police are called. If your kid has evidence of being hit; its domestic violence the same as if you hit your wife, and the cops hands are tied. They can’t say “He was just disciplining his kid” and let it go.

I’m just saying that I don’t agree with violence against an innocent that I love. My kids never threw a temper tantrum in a grocery store; they knew better, and I never used violence against my kids. My dog is very well behaved when I take him out in public and I’ve never hit him either. I just don’t buy into this “Small children don’t understand anything except violence” mindset.

I guess what I’m saying to everyone that thinks hitting their kid is okay; is that yes, it’s your kid and you can discipline your kid in any way you see fit. And as long as no one else is involved it will be between you and your kid for the rest of your life. Once a cop is called…. Yes, you will be judged.

[ironsniper1]

When she hits her two year old on the side of his legs, she yells and screams at him at the same time. She does it with so much anger. It's not just two hits, she does it 5 - 7 times in a row, but it doesn't stop there; she hits him even more after he's already started screaming, "mama! mama!" He's obviously not remembering or understanding the mistakes he's made even after he's been hit on the legs a dozen times. He cries less when she's not home. He would follow my gf around or sit next to her quietly. It seems that when you act calmly, his behaviour would tone down then he'd just sit, smile and giggle. Soon as she gets home, he becomes the opposite.

[Jesse]

Once you start off spanking youll prob stick with it much like people who smoke. You cant spank then do timeouts and expect them to work.

I still stick with spanking is just being lazy no matter what anyone says.

We started timeouts and taking away toys with our kid since she was 6 months old. She is 6 now and is very resonable and kind, she knows right from wrong. She is pretty politicaly correct for her age. She is a calm kid compared to hyper 6 year olds like I was. We havent gotten on to her in weeks. She beside me now playing Angry Birds.

You dont have to spank, but if its something the parents fill they must bring out of their bag of parenting skills, then so be it. Just remember kids do as they see and hear.

[Jesse]

[quote name='luke9511' timestamp='1352066195' post='839048']
When she hits her two year old on the side of his legs, she yells and screams at him at the same time. She does it with so much anger. It's not just two hits, she does it 5 - 7 times in a row, but it doesn't stop there; she hits him even more after he's already started screaming, "mama! mama!" He's obviously not remembering or understanding the mistakes he's made even after he's been hit on the legs a dozen times. He cries less when she's not home. He would follow my gf around or sit next to her quietly. It seems that when you act calmly, his behaviour would tone down then he'd just sit, smile and giggle. Soon as she gets home, he becomes the opposite.
[/quote]

I feel sorry for the kid. I wish people like that couldnt have kids. Wish i could give all abused kids a safe loving home.

[daddyo]

[quote name='Jesse' timestamp='1352068556' post='839071']I still stick with spanking is just being lazy [i][b]no matter what anyone says[/b][/i].
[/quote]

OK, we won't confuse you with any facts.

[Smith]

[quote name='Jesse' timestamp='1352068556' post='839071']
Once you start off spanking youll prob stick with it much like people who smoke. You cant spank then do timeouts and expect them to work.

I still stick with spanking is just being lazy no matter what anyone says.

We started timeouts and taking away toys with our kid since she was 6 months old. She is 6 now and is very resonable and kind, she knows right from wrong. She is pretty politicaly correct for her age. She is a calm kid compared to hyper 6 year olds like I was. We havent gotten on to her in weeks. She beside me now playing Angry Birds.

You dont have to spank, but if its something the parents fill they must bring out of their bag of parenting skills, then so be it. Just remember kids do as they see and hear.
[/quote]

I can tell you that the difference between one kid and several makes a big difference as well. One kid is pretty darn easy. When you get out numbered it can turn on you pretty quickly, just sayin.

[Guest tommy62]

Mind your own business.

[TGO David]

[quote name='personDJ' timestamp='1351999551' post='838691']
I can't believe how many think discpline is hitting or spanking. My god I can teach a dog how to behave without hitting and children are much smarter. If your child tears pages from a book then that child is not ready for a book, just take it away until you can teach the child how to handle a book. When a child acts up find out why and change that. Don't change the child by hitting. When it gets to the point that you must hit a child to make them act as you want then maybe it is the spanker that needs some learning
[/quote]

I'm curious why you carry a firearm if you feel that corporal punishment as manifested in a "spanking" is morally wrong.

[Alleycat72]

Try living with four kids. Three of them under three. Then tell me how you feel about spanking. Throw in the fact that it's illegal to spank the youngest three.

[personDJ]

[quote name='Murgatroy' timestamp='1352007290' post='838735']
I think it has become obvious as this point that you don't have children.

I am going to politely request that you STFU.

Maybe when you can pull your head out of you rectum, you will realize that the world operates on different frequencies for many different reasons.

I am sorry that you feel the need to attempt to belittle or insinuate that we are all poor parents because you don't understand where we come from.

Maybe you can find it in yourself to go and volunteer at some shelters for children without parents, or for those who have been taken away from their parents. Maybe then you will be able to understand the difference between discipline and abuse. Maybe go to a prison and perform a study and see how many there were raised without rules, with parents who weren't there, or those that were and they tried to 'reason' with their child as they grew.

But frankly, until you live a week in a parent shoes, I want you to keep your ignorant tree hugging liberal opinions to yourself. Or at the very least not use me as an example when you get on your flawed and jaded soapbox.
[/quote]

You know so little. I can say what I want you also can. there is no need for the nasty reply. I have children grown with their own children and they don't spank or hit their kids as I did not. I fell hitting or spanking a child is done by some because they haven't learned to get their way in any other manner. I know you won't like this but maybe I have a more inlighten brain. For you to berate me because I taught my children without hitting or spanking is really sad. I am just saying maybe you believe in spanking because you don't see another way.This is for anyone. To spank just because you were spanked doesn't mean it is just.

By the way I never said anyone was a bad parent. I know plenty of folks that spank their children and I don't hold it against them so let's not hold it against me because I used other means. Edited November 5, 2012 by personDJ

[personDJ]

[quote name='TGO David' timestamp='1352070564' post='839091']
I'm curious why you carry a firearm if you feel that corporal punishment as manifested in a "spanking" is morally wrong.
[/quote]

There is a big difference between protecting my family and spanking a child. I don't spank and my grown children don't spank but I will shoot at the drop of a hat to protect mine.

[personDJ]

I am finished with the topic. I don't hold anything against anyone here. It is not a personal issue with me it is a teaching issue. You may teach in any manner you wish. I will do the same.

[gregintenn]

[quote name='Jesse' timestamp='1352068556' post='839071']
Once you start off spanking youll prob stick with it much like people who smoke. You cant spank then do timeouts and expect them to work.

I still stick with spanking is just being lazy no matter what anyone says.

We started timeouts and taking away toys with our kid since she was 6 months old. She is 6 now and is very resonable and kind, she knows right from wrong. She is pretty politicaly correct for her age. She is a calm kid compared to hyper 6 year olds like I was. We havent gotten on to her in weeks. She beside me now playing Angry Birds.

You dont have to spank, but if its something the parents fill they must bring out of their bag of parenting skills, then so be it. Just remember kids do as they see and hear.
[/quote]

Your children do not share my DNA; mind do. Since they are akin to me, they require the occasional rap to the hind quarters to stay in line just as I did.

I grew up in a different time and place than we have now. I once spanked another person's child, and didn't know the child OR the parent. I was shooting pool in a country store with a friend, when a little boy came in, grabbed a handful of talcum powder, and threw it all over me. I turned him over my knee and spanked his rear end. If the mother objected, she never said anything. I might have done the same to her had she objected. Children who aren't disciplined often turn out to be the sort of adults who have screwed this once great country up!

[Guest FIST]

This argument is starting to look like what's happening with the Army.

As an NCO you have to be able to deal with multiple types of people, most in the 18-21 age group. As an NCO you have a few different tools available for corrective action.

1. Smoking. For those that don't know, this is the phrase used for administering corrective action by way of physical exercise. It can be anything from Push-ups to Monkey Fu*#ers. This used to go on till the NCO got tired but new policies have greatly restricted its use (I.e. only allowed to make joe do 25 push-ups etc). Every Soldier reacts to it differently, works on some and not others.

2. Paperwork. An NCO can build a paper trail of everything joe does wrong. Results can be anywhere from a loss of the Soldiers time/money/rank to separation from the service. Some fear this, others could give 2 sh#*ts.

3. Talking. If an NCO feels the Soldier is able to be corrected by a discussion or stern word. Once again, works on some and not others.

4. Wall to wall counseling or the tree line. This is far less common today but entails taking said offender and beating his a** to straighten him up. Works on some but not on snitches.

The level of discipline in the Army today is laughable compared to back in the day. Some of this can be attributed to new policies that tie the NCO's hands, some to quick promotions that put people in leadership positions they shouldn't be in, etc.

The point is, when you take tools away it can make a job that's tough become very tough quickly. If you as a parent are able to correct your child without spanking, good for you. If you choose to spank as necessary while raising your rug rat, good for you. Every child is different, every parent as well. Spanking is nothing more than a tool in the bag and can be very useful if applied properly.

Spanking is not abuse, abuse is abuse. There are different levels of everything and generalizing spanking into abuse is no different than saying guns kill people. Last I checked, a gun is a tool, when its applied properly it can be very usefull. I don't leave home without my pistol for the simple fact I may need it. Spanking is no different.

Is a crook more likely to break in your home if he knows there isn't a threat? Yes. Is a child more likely to push their limits if they don't care about the repercussions? Yes. I'm fortunate, my children are aware that spankings are in my tool bag and with that being said Its rarely used. Edited November 5, 2012 by FIST

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='personDJ' timestamp='1352073686' post='839116']
You know so little. I can say what I want you also can. there is no need for the nasty reply. I have children grown with their own children and they don't spank or hit their kids as I did not. I fell hitting or spanking a child is done by some because they haven't learned to get their way in any other manner. I know you won't like this but maybe I have a more inlighten brain. For you to berate me because I taught my children without hitting or spanking is really sad. I am just saying maybe you believe in spanking because you don't see another way.This is for anyone. To spank just because you were spanked doesn't mean it is just.

By the way I never said anyone was a bad parent. I know plenty of folks that spank their children and I don't hold it against them so let's not hold it against me because I used other means.
[/quote]

We have an issue with you implying that those who spank their children are wrong while you are right. We are all different and how we raise our children is also different. Seems kind of self righteous to think that you are the only one doing the right thing. You are not right and you are not wrong. What you are is somehwere in the middle, just as the rest of us.

[color=#0000FF]Spanking is not abuse, abuse is abuse[/color]. (I promise I did not copy this from you Fist. I had it typed out before you posted).

I will not negotiate with a 3 year old to get them to do what I want them to. I will not bribe them nor will I succumb to their wishes in order to make them happy. That only sets them up to feel like they are going to get what they want if they make enough noise or be bad enough.

My job is to prepare my child for the real world and if you are not preparing your child for the same then you are failing your child.

Dolomite

[TMF]

[quote name='Jesse' timestamp='1352068556' post='839071']Once you start off spanking youll prob stick with it much like people who smoke. You cant spank then do timeouts and expect them to work.

I still stick with spanking is just being lazy no matter what anyone says.

[/quote]

To the first part, that isn't true. Want proof? I'm here. My son has only been spanked a few times. A LOT of criteria must be met before it gets to that level. Timeouts work great still. There are so many things we do to not only discipline him, but get him to make the choice to do right on his own by preemptively addressing issues that may come up, so that when they do he will do the right thing. This isn't done with spankings or threats of spankings. So presumptuous and close minded of you to adopt a belief structure without considering the possibility that intelligent people have thought this through.

To the second part, I'll just stick to the belief that you're just a lazy thinker, and incredibly ignorant.