When does spanking become abuse?

[ironsniper1]

we (me and my girlfriend) live in a three story house with my grandparents and sister and her child.

now we are on the top floor and she is on the floor below us, now when her 2 year old does something hes not supposed to do we can hear her spank him all the way up here through doors and walls.

when should we basically do something? and should we do something?

we worry about this child and what might happen when she moves out but were at a loss at what to do! any help or advice anyone can give would be great!

[TripleDigitRide]

[sub]According to my 13-year-old daughter, the mere [i]threat[/i] of a spanking is concidered child abuse.[/sub] Edited November 2, 2012 by TripleDigitRide

[xRUSTYx]

Spanking it a touchy subject. I'm all for it, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.

The goal of the spanking is to teach discipline. Spanking every day = obviously your approach to discipline is wrong, and misguided.

IMO - Spanking is the ultimate discipline and should be used as such. When it pains you as a parent to spank your child, that's discipline. If you start to feel anger/relief/enjoyment from spanking your child = borderline abuse.

When a child is spanked in the heat of the moment, many times, it can turn abusive. I was taught to allow a good 45-60 minutes of timeout/stay in room/prepare for spanking, prior to the parent/guarding spanking. This not only allows the child to think about what they did and what is about to happen, it also allows the parent to calm down, talk with their child about what they did wrong, and issue discipline correctly with the correct mindset, instead of abusively and taking their rage/anger/resentment out on their child.

Edited November 2, 2012 by xRUSTYx

[gregintenn]

Unless there's more to it than you've posted, I'd suggest you keep quiet and let her be a good parent. Discipline is a part of that.

[ironsniper1]

[quote name='xRUSTYx' timestamp='1351875626' post='837819']
Spanking it a touchy subject. I'm all for it, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.

The goal of the spanking is to teach discipline. Spanking every day = obviously your approach to discipline is wrong, and misguided.

IMO - Spanking is the ultimate discipline and should be used as such. When it pains you as a parent to spank your child, that's discipline. If you start to feel anger/relief/enjoyment from spanking your child = borderline abuse.

When a child is spanked in the heat of the moment, many times, it can turn abusive. I was taught to allow a good 45-60 minutes of timeout/stay in room/prepare for spanking, prior to the parent/guarding spanking. This not only allows the child to think about what they did and what is about to happen, it also allows the parent to calm down, talk with their child about what they did wrong, and issue discipline correctly with the correct mindset, instead of abusively and taking their rage/anger/resentment out on their child.
[/quote]she does her out of anger imo as she yells loud when he does something and then spank him, i dont think she feels any regret as i have heard her say to the child " oh i know mommy is a bad person aint she" in a sarcastically type of tone

[personDJ]

I fell sorry for folks that think they are doing good by employing violence. What do you think you are teaching by hitting another human. Never hit children. Never hit anyone unless it's for self defence. Edited November 2, 2012 by personDJ

[ironsniper1]

[quote name='gregintenn' timestamp='1351875758' post='837822']
Unless there's more to it than you've posted, I'd suggest you keep quiet and let her be a good parent. Discipline is a part of that.
[/quote]she lied to a dcs worker saying she does not hit him or goes any where with out him theres more and i have recordings etc of some of the stuff she has done to the baby, she complains about not having money to feed the baby but she uses her foodstamps (dont even get me started on how i feel about that whole thing) to buy food for the "baby" but really its for her and most of the food she "cooks" if you call it that for the baby the baby wont eat it

[101]

Contrary to liberal belief, spanking is not illegal. Only time its considered abuse is if the child has bruising or the spanking is elsewhere besides the butt. Now, I'm no lawyer but do have some personal experience with this subject. The law will and can be bent to accuse the parent of anything they want.

Common sense should prevail. Just because the child is throwing a huge, loud, obnoxious tantrum when getting spanked does not mean the child is being abused. If the spanking results in bruising then it can be called abuse by the system BUT once again some children bruise very easily.

I would mind your own business until there is hard, solid evidence of actual abuse. Once you involve the system, they will make it up as they go along and your relationship with your family is done, forever. The system is set up in the child abuse area so that you will fail, and you will be charged and they have NO I repeat NO oversight to determine if they are not being over zealous.

[ironsniper1]

[quote name='gregintenn' timestamp='1351875758' post='837822']
Unless there's more to it than you've posted, I'd suggest you keep quiet and let her be a good parent. Discipline is a part of that.
[/quote]oh and she forced the baby to try something he didnt want to try and she told him if he didnt he wouldnt get anything to eat and guess what happend he didnt get anything to eat

[UncleJak]

As a father of two childern (11 and 7) I don't think spanking a two year old is appropriate. Small children do not need spankings, they need instruction and guidance. I have spanked both of my kids before, but it is rare and when I have it was done just to "sting" a bit. Some people disagree with spanking alltogether, but a little spanking never hurt anyone. My neice (on my wife's side) was constantly spanked as a young child and now at 15 she has very little discipline and ZERO respect for her parents. Spanking should be reserved for certain infractions only. I know there are always exceptions to every rule but this is how I feel.
As far as reporting abuse, I have done this too. The child services people were not helpful at all. In fact, they said we did not have enough "proof" to even investiaget our complaint. I was so angry at them for ignoring a real problem. My solution in that case was to tell the parent I had reported them to DCS and they were being investigated (a total lie). It kinda worked though.

[ironsniper1]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1351876111' post='837830']
Contrary to liberal belief, spanking is not illegal. Only time its considered abuse is if the child has bruising or the spanking is elsewhere besides the butt. Now, I'm no lawyer but do have some personal experience with this subject. The law will and can be bent to accuse the parent of anything they want.

Common sense should prevail. Just because the child is throwing a huge, loud, obnoxious tantrum when getting spanked does not mean the child is being abused. If the spanking results in bruising then it can be called abuse by the system BUT once again some children bruise very easily.

I would mind your own business until there is hard, solid evidence of actual abuse. Once you involve the system, they will make it up as they go along and your relationship with your family is done, forever. The system is set up in the child abuse area so that you will fail, and you will be charged and they have NO I repeat NO oversight to determine if they are not being over zealous.
[/quote]she does not spank him on the butt and i have not been around him much but he used to have cuts on his legs ALL the time and she has said its cause he falls ALOT her words not mine

[gregintenn]

Sounds like there IS more to the story. Let your conscience be your guide. You see and hear a lot more than you could post on an internet forum.

[gregintenn]

[quote name='personDJ' timestamp='1351876007' post='837827']
I fell sorry for folks that think they are doing good by employing violence. What do you think you are teaching by hitting another human. Never hit children. Never hit anyone unless it's for self defence.
[/quote]
I have no idea whether or not you are a Christian. If you are, how do you intrepret Proverbs 13:24 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."?

[peejman]

[quote name='xRUSTYx' timestamp='1351875626' post='837819']
Spanking it a touchy subject. I'm all for it, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.

The goal of the spanking is to teach discipline. Spanking every day = obviously your approach to discipline is wrong, and misguided.

IMO - Spanking is the ultimate discipline and should be used as such. When it pains you as a parent to spank your child, that's discipline. If you start to feel anger/relief/enjoyment from spanking your child = borderline abuse.

When a child is spanked in the heat of the moment, many times, it can turn abusive. I was taught to allow a good 45-60 minutes of timeout/stay in room/prepare for spanking, prior to the parent/guarding spanking. This not only allows the child to think about what they did and what is about to happen, it also allows the parent to calm down, talk with their child about what they did wrong, and issue discipline correctly with the correct mindset, instead of abusively and taking their rage/anger/resentment out on their child.
[/quote]

This.

Intervening can get complicated real fast. Other than looking for bruises and such that MAY indicate abuse, I think it's best left to the professionals.

Spanking should never be done in anger. The "cooling off" period mentioned above is important. I admit to not following it all the time myself. If you don't have kids, you simply don't understand how fast they can set you off. I don't mean that to sound condescending, that's just how it is.

[peejman]

[quote name='luke9511' timestamp='1351876143' post='837831']
oh and she forced the baby to try something he didnt want to try and she told him if he didnt he wouldnt get anything to eat and guess what happend he didnt get anything to eat
[/quote]

A kid that throws a fit when presented with a new food? Gets mad and makes a horrendous mess? Gee.... that's never happened before. The "eat it or starve" option may be a little harsh for a 2 year old, but I've been there with my kids.

[101]

[quote name='luke9511' timestamp='1351876235' post='837833']
she does not spank him on the butt and i have not been around him much but he used to have cuts on his legs ALL the time and she has said its cause he falls ALOT her words not mine
[/quote]

I would say then, she is not "spanking" the child but striking him and that is unacceptable.

[ironsniper1]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1351877163' post='837846']
I would say then, she is not "spanking" the child but striking him and that is unacceptable.
[/quote]i have also seen her jerk him by the arm and pick him up and walk off in anger carrying him by the one arm, we also contacted dcs and they sent someone over but my sister just lied through her teeth and the dcs person just laughed and giggled with her over what she was saying, it was a complete joke

[Smith]

Raising kids and disciplining is not an exact science. I've got four kids and my oldest daughter I can speak to sternly and she falls to pieces. My oldest son I can spank all day (metaphorically) before it gets through to him. Each instance is different and each kid is different. It ain't easy being a parent and discipline won't be perfect. Avoid responding in anger (easy said) and always have a moment of redemption afterwords. As I told my son I'd rather he hurt temporarily by my hands of guidance than permanently by a world who doesn't care.


That being said each situation is different. Getting advice here on your situation is not something any of us here can give you clarity on. I can say to be very careful in both directions. DO NOT let the child be abused, however, when DCS gets involved it can often be worse.
I've seen it both ways. Wisdom and good judgment are necessary - NOT emotions. Edited November 2, 2012 by AK Guy

[101]

[quote name='luke9511' timestamp='1351877456' post='837848']
i have also seen her jerk him by the arm and pick him up and walk off in anger carrying him by the one arm, we also contacted dcs and they sent someone over but my sister just lied through her teeth and the dcs person just laughed and giggled with her over what she was saying, it was a complete joke
[/quote]

Not to be intrusive, does your sister have a job? Or is she being completely supported by the system (tenncare, food stamps, welfare, etc.)?

My experience in this area has taught me that DCS will not likely intervene because when they remove a child they charge the parents for child support and cost of custody. If she is already on the rolls then they will eat the cost of intervening with the child. If she had a job or money of her own they would have already acted on the accusations alone.

So, until she actually does some severe, noticeable harm....DCS will not likely do anything.

[ironsniper1]

[quote name='101' timestamp='1351878100' post='837858']
Not to be intrusive, does your sister have a job? Or is she being completely supported by the system (tenncare, food stamps, welfare, etc.)?

My experience in this area has taught me that DCS will not likely intervene because when they remove a child they charge the parents for child support and cost of custody. If she is already on the rolls then they will eat the cost of intervening with the child. If she had a job or money of her own they would have already acted on the accusations alone.

So, until she actually does some severe, noticeable harm....DCS will not likely do anything.
[/quote]shes completely on the system, shes just like our mom she has a record so she cant get a job or if she can she is like alot of people who abuse the system and does not want too, i dont even know where shes getting money to move out (well except that she stole my grandfathers 900 dollar ring and he believes she did it but no proof) or to have a one of the pay minute phones or if the way shes getting money is legal or not

[Jesse]

My daughter is almost 7 and has never been spanked or hit.


And she is a good kid. We got lucky i Guess.I hope the next is as good.

[ironsniper1]

forgot to ad my sister is pregnant again with twins, i know shes going to treat them the same way as her current one if not worse

[Caster]

Don't hit anywhere other than the backside. Other than that, wear them out. That's why this country is full of whiny mamby pamby sissy mary piss ants.

It's not fair. THe other kids don't like me. My parents don't love me.


Stupid little brats. There's a reason kids are so stupid, parents lack the spine to prepare them for a world that doesn't care about their stupid worthless feelings. How they feel inside does not put food on the table. Amerika has successfully raised the largest group of cowards in the history of man.




Solomon told you everything you need to know about raising kids. He knew more than Dr. Spock's idiot ars ever did.

[i]Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.[/i]

[i]Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.[/i]
[i]He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. [/i]
[i]A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.[/i]

Edited November 2, 2012 by Caster

[Jonnin]

I would say it is abuse if it leaves a mark that lasts longer than about an hour, TOPS. Brusies are abuse. Redness that persists is abuse. Bone fractures (which is incrediblty diffuclt to do for the very young, their bones are more flexible) is abuse.

Remember this, too: a kid that age LIKELY is still in diapers which is a seroiusly tough padding. If she is whacking the kid with THOSE on, even a pretty good hit and a rather loud one is not doing much harm.

-------
Spanking is one tool and my 2 cents is that it is mighty effective if done properly and at a certain age. 2 is a good age for it: the kid is going to test limits and disobey on purpose until convinced to stop doing that. In addition to it, the 2 year old is NOT going to listen to logic or do as told just because mom said so. By age 5-6, though, a child should be able to understand logic and other forms of punishment become more useful, such as taking away toys or TV or send to bed early or whatever. My sister had a great saying: whiners are tired and have to go to bed. Kid whines, she made it take a nap and that was that. Its amazing how much better a kid behaves when not tired.

[Jesse]

Me and my wife have always believed spanking is the lazy way out of parenting.

Its a lot of work to teach a kid from right and wrong without hitting but once you do its drilled into their memory for life. Hitting teaches them its short term punishment. And could make them hit other kids out of anger also.

I wouldnt want my child to ever have fear that i would hit them if they messed up. Im all for talking to them and figuring out why they did what they did. And timeouts also work great if you stick to it.