Striker fired pistols

[deerslayer]

I guess it's just a difference in philosophy. I compare this mindset to motorcyclists who claim that there are two types of riders--those who have crashed, and those who will.

As far as comparing apples to oranges, my "target" gun is a stock Glock 19. I bet if you came and shot with us sometime, some of our stages would be remarkably similar to your idea of "protective" shooting.

In the end, I agree with you--train and practice with whatever works for you, and whatever works the best for you may be a lousy choice for someone else.

[Marswolf]

I bet if you came and shot with us sometime, some of our stages would be remarkably similar to your idea of "protective" shooting.

Do the stages jump out at you unexpectedly on a city street after leaving a restaurant?

In the end, I agree with you--train and practice with whatever works for you, and whatever works the best for you may be a lousy choice for someone else.

Especially if they won't practice safer techniques.

[GhostDog]

I'm sure you don't advocate some of the techniques you use w/ a DA pistol for everyone, do you?

Edited June 12, 2008 by GhostDog

[deerslayer]

Do the stages jump out at you unexpectedly on a city street after leaving a restaurant?

You'd be suprised at what some match directors create. How do you practice this scenario?

[Marswolf]

I'm sure you don't advocate some of the techniques you use w/ a DA pistol for everyone, do you?

Not sure I understand your question. Nothing wrong with DA. I carry a DAO as a BUG. I've considered one as a primary. Everyone should learn how to shoot that way.

You'd be suprised at what some match directors create. How do you practice this scenario?

I'm sure there is some good practice along with the fun. But you are at a target shoot, know something is going to happen and that you aren't going to get shot at. I've done a lot of similar training. The mindset is different than in the field anticipating a possible ambush.

[Guest canynracer]

Sooooo....my Sigma 9VE with the heavy trigger pull is good!!! Woooo Hoooooo!!!!

**does a little dance**

[Guest db99wj]

Sooooo....my Sigma 9VE with the heavy trigger pull is good!!! Woooo Hoooooo!!!!

**does a little dance**

Smilies are like crack for you....there's help out there, but YOU have to make the decision to get help.

[GhostDog]

They (striker, DA/SA, DAO, SA) all have their own unique characteristics, I was talking about the "safer techniques" for their use. Some of the techniques you describe using might not be a good idea for a pistol "newbie". It's not about the gun, it's about the user. Hope this doesn't sound caustic, I'm just trying to explain what I meant.

[Marswolf]

Actually, I've tried to stay away from specific gun brands as much as possible and stay more generic.

I do think some designs are more safe than others, but require more practice to make them work well for you in a crisis situation. It is harder to fire DA than SA, but with practice it works very well. What's bad is that the people who have NDs probably wouldn't practice sufficiently with the safer design.

[GhostDog]

What's bad is that there are far too many people (including trained professionals) who won't practice enough with ANY DESIGN, which makes the whole argument of which type is "safer" kind of a moot point. This is what I've been getting at all along.

See there, I can agree with you Mars.

[Marswolf]

I think it's pretty obvious that practice is good. People don't do that for a lot of reasons - financial constraints, lack of time (either real or perceived), etcetera. But for most people, I suspect that they are just too lazy to practice. They'd rather sit in front of the TV watching Jerry Springer than go out and practice with their handgun.

I think this make choosing a safer design more important for them, even though it's harder to use. I'd rather see poorly trained packers out there with a gun that is less likely to go off "accidentally".

Field stripping is really a separate issue. Again, I like a safer design that can be field stripped even with a round in the chamber - just in case. The main problem we see with NDs is apparently just going muddleheaded and doing something to the handgun without thinking. As I've said, I don't think it is possible to eliminate that. We all are subject to that problem. In fact I suspect we are probably more likely to do that as we become more familiar with our handgun. We do things without thinking because we know the gun so well. That's probably why we see so many stories of experienced LEOs shooting themselves.

[GhostDog]

Some guns are slightly more tolerant of poor handling (group A). These also require more work/practice to use effectively in "serious social situations (SSS)". Conversely, some are less forgiving of poor handling (group . These are easier to use effectively in "SSS". It comes down to what you want vs what you can live without. You make the argument (rightly so) that "A" guns can be used just as effectively as "B" guns if the user is willing to work harder to learn to shoot the gun. I say that "B" guns are just as safe as "A" if the user is willing to work harder to learn to handle the gun (just as "right" as your argument I believe). Ain't freedom to choose a wonderful thing?

I disagree about LEOs. What you point out is true of some but not most of these cases (IMHO). The level of training and experience varies greatly from one LEO to the next and from one PD to the next, as does the level of professionalism. Just keep in mind what the minimum standard is and you'll see what I mean. You may know and mingle with those who are near the top but I KNOW that there are plenty of "minimum" types out there. It's like the straight "C" students in high school (who think that is just fine); and even the straight "D" students all graduate, right?

[Marswolf]

I say that "B" guns are just as safe as "A" if the user is willing to work harder to learn to handle the gun

I don't think the problem is that the user doesn't know how to handle the gun. I'd say that in most cases the NDer knows very well how to handle the gun. They just get careless. I still suspect it is because they know the gun so well, they go into "autopilot" mode instead of focusing on what they are doing. It would be interesting to interview the ND shooters and find out what they were thinking about. I think I know the answer.

In the one case I witnessed a ND, the shooter was ex-military and ex-LEO. He had an XD that he had carried for quite a while. Glock before that. He was in a gun shop with the XD and decided to field strip it to show someone something about the gun. He dropped the magazine, then "dry-fired".... Oops, forgot to clear the chamber first.

His explanation? "I just wasn't thinking."

But his training was such that it was pointed in a safe direction. I've never seen him with a gun in his hand when that wasn't true. That could be worked on in training for a lot of people. I learned that from Roy Rogers as a kid. "Never point a gun at someone unless you intend to use it."

The level of training and experience varies greatly from one LEO to the next and from one PD to the next, as does the level of professionalism. Just keep in mind what the minimum standard is and you'll see what I mean. You may know and mingle with those who are near the top but I KNOW that there are plenty of "minimum" types out there.

As far as training goes, most LEOs I I know are pretty close to minimum standards on duty weapon practice. The departments won't spend the money on ammunition and the LEOs are so underpaid they won't buy ammunition to practice for the job. They would rather get the kids something for fun. I don't blame them.

[GhostDog]

There's knowing something in your head and knowing it in you "gut". The first you can get from a book. The second requires work and experience. That's what I mean by knowing how to handle the gun. The example you gave is a good one; it shows what can happen to any of us, but no one was shot because the guy knew his gun safety (when he made one mistake, he didn't compound it by doing something beyond the pale).

I think we agree about the LEOs, and I don't blame them either except that it's their butts on the line and you might expect a little more concern on their part.

Edited June 15, 2008 by GhostDog

[Marswolf]

I'll make one last off-topic comment about LEO practice. If we want to continue that, I guess we had better start another topic.

I don't think LEOs in general are going to practice until their departments supply them with ammunition to do it and require X amount of training and practice time per quarter for them to keep their badge. But I don't think that will happen until departments are required to do that to maintain their certification.

[GhostDog]

It's still unfortunate, especially for the officers.

[Guest price g]

This is one of the best threads I have ever read on TGO. Very informative. As an instructor, I sometimes feel people make wrong choices in hand gun selection. Usually an outside source recommends a handgun. I guess I am old school, but I belive a good portion of carriers would be better served with a revolver. Very few permit carriers will ever be forced to draw. Even fewer will take time to practice their skills. So, my thinking is a simple revolver would do the trick. Just my 02.

Edited June 16, 2008 by price g

[John Wall]

Striker fired sidearms DO have a monumental advantage in Extreme Close Quarter Combat (contact distance). The ability to keep the gun in battery while screwing it into the offender's belly button is a technique not often taught. The same trigger pull for every shot is an obvious advantage. Delayed trigger reset is also a feature that can be used on most any firearm.

Being an old revolver shooter, I have always shot them double action. ALL superspeed shooting records are held with DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVERS. A long heavy trigger pull does not make it impossible to shoot accurately, but does require that more time and resources be tasked to training. This is not going to happen at many PD's.

I can take a shooter with very limited training and have them at a level of competency to carry a Glock defensively with less time and resouces than most any other sidearm. This includes safely accessing and recovering to the holster, loading, unloading, stoppage reduction drills, and reloading the sidearm.

Until the time I spent a week at a L. E. Reduced Light Shooting Techniques Instructor Class, I trained with a Sig P-226. After watching other L.E. Instructors perform with Glocks in stressful, pitch dark conditions, I went back to the Glock.

The Glock is a premier defensive sidearm and the Gold Standard for Law Enforcement. It is not going anywhere. Reputable Instructors who keep their techniques current are going to train folks to MARCH ON. Trainers with outdated techniques will demonize the Glock and belittle those who choose them for defense and duty.

The prerequisite for sucessfully carrying and using any self loading handgun is having the hand and arm strength to manipulate the slide and the ability to load, unload, and reduce stoppages. These drill must become unconscious actions. This will only happen with training and repetition.

Often, if a person lacks the strength to operate a self loading pistol, they lack the strength to pull the 12-15 lb trigger on a double action revolver.

In my travels taking L.E. Instructor classes, I have seen numerous oopsies with firearms of all kinds. I have seen experienced cops beat a magazine onto a gun BACKWARDS under stress. I have been next to Chief Instructors who recovered to the holster without decocking their Sig P-220. I have been swept with M-16's with the shooter's finger on the trigger and the safety off. I have looked down the muzzle of a Remmy 870P in the same condition.

Bottom line? The Chief is ALWAYS chintzy with the training budget. A snazzy new uniform or special pursuit car often gets the nod over training for the troops.

It was said before that if equipment is changed after an employee is hired, training was performed by a company rep to familiarsize the employee with the new gear.

This does not happen at the PD when a new weapons platform is added.

With Glock-specific training, proper service and good ammunition, it is as safe as any other sidearm. If the L.E. Instructor is handed a flyer with a training schedule for a new weapons platform, then everyone is at risk.

The first advisory is to keep the finger off the trigger until the decision has been made to fire a shot(s).

Edited June 17, 2008 by John Wall

[Guest Brian@GunDepot]

The first advisory is to keep the finger off the trigger until the decision has been made to fire a shot(s).

First and only advisory in my opinion. Very well said.

I've carried a Glocks, XDs, and several 1911 style weapons over the last decade and none of them fired because I was paying 100% attention EVERYTIME I handled them. Even if you know everything there is to know about guns it doesn't make you invincible to mistakes; if anything it could make you more probable since your more comfortable and think less about it.

John's post sums it up nicely all in all though.

[Marswolf]