Striker fired pistols

[GhostDog]

I'm seeking serious opinions from you guys. Some folks on the forum insist that there are "better" guns out there than the striker fired guns in spite of the obvious success of these guns (Glock and XD in particular). One of the arguments they use to try to support their supposition is the dreaded "Glock leg/butt" (folks shooting themselves while holstering the pistol). My question is: Why has this become a problem now? Glocks have been in use for 20+ years but this "problem" has only surfaced in the last few. If it's a gun problem, why has it only recently appeared?

The striker fired guns have many things in common but they also differ. I know this. The point of my question is not why you think one is better than the other. I would rather this not turn into another "mine is best" threads. That would be a waste. My point is that the guns are the same now as they were then, so why the "problem" now?

What prompted me to start this thread was reading another thread in which one of the guys had an ND (almost lost a toe) with a gun that actually had a HAMMER (a statistical impossibility according to some). With that in mind, please share some opinions about my question. By the way, I'm in no way running the guy down. It's not like I've never shot an unarmed baseboard that was minding it's own business.

[Moped]

The Butt/Leg thing has been going on since they started importing the first Glocks back in the 1980's. If one keeps one's finger off the trigger while holstering a Glock, it's not a problem. Actually, any other pistol for that matter. It does seem to happen mostly to LEO officers though.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Glock trigger though, because it's the same pull after pull. I'm also a big fan of the 1911 and the Browning Hi-Power for the same reason.

[highshot]

Here we go again.

[GhostDog]

I too am a Glock fan. I prefer them because I shoot them best. Doesn't mean I think everything else is junk. But, back to the point.

I have no doubt it has happed before. I dare say it happened even before Glocks and XDs were even invented. What I don't "get" is that some claim it has increased recently. Either: A)This is just plain not the case, It is true and always has been. It was just the best kept secret on the planet, or C) It is true (increased recently).

If "C" is correct, why is that? THAT'S THE REAL QUESTION. You do make a very good point, it does seem to happen most often to LEOs. I guess that would be part 2 of my question; Why is it the trained professionals who are shooting themselves? Is it suddenly the guns, is it the officers, or is it the "training" the officers are getting?

[Guest darkstar]

Well part of the reason LEO's do seemingly shoot themselves with Glocks is that there are thousands and thousands of Glocks being used by Police and other LE departments. If memory serves I believe there are more Glocks in "service" than pretty much anything else. So there is a good chance if someone does have a negligent discharge it could be a Glock....just because of sheer numbers. ( I ain't touching the whole Glocks are unsafe, Glocks Rule, Glocks suck thing)

I like both traditional hammer type guns and striker fired guns. The Glock wars will always keep going on and on and on......

Edited June 5, 2008 by darkstar

[Guest HunterH]

I am still at a loss why anyone blames THE GUN for firing when you pull the trigger.... the best gun safety is between your ears. If you shoot your leg when you draw, you are incompetant. The gun did what you told it to do. Get your friggin finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready to distroy what the gun is aimed at... that simple... This boils down to the most basic safety rules my dad taught me when I was about 8 yrs old. Gun safety is a lifestyle and should not chage with what gun you are using at the time.

[Guest Steelharp]

IIRC, his Lordship JMB started the design of the BHP as a striker fired gun...

[Guest HunterH]

IIRC, his Lordship JMB started the design of the BHP as a striker fired gun...

wow, too many acronyms... I got lost... I am sure it is good info, but I am still learing to speak forum.

[Guest Steelharp]

Sorry... If I recall correctly, his Lordship John Moses Browning started the design of the Browning Hi Power as a striker fired gun...

[Guest HunterH]

Sorry... If I recall correctly, his Lordship John Moses Browning started the design of the Browning Hi Power as a striker fired gun...

Thanks! I will no doubt be posting with lots of acronyms in the near future once I get the hang of it.

[Guest jackdog]

pretty easy to explain. It is poor gun handling practices, nothing more. I'm not sure it is more Leo's than non LEo's. I think we here about the Leo's more is all.

[Guest nraforlife]

Keep your finger OFF THE TRIGGER.

[Guest bluecanary25]

Isn't there a picture someplace with something about:

Keep your booger hook off the bang button?

linky (see #39): http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7284&page=4

Edited June 5, 2008 by bluecanary25
had to find da pichure

[Guest Len]

What he said.

I agree with the "numbers" argument as well. There are more Glocks in service than anything else, more than EVERYTHING else if you believe Glock. The lack of an external safety, in my mind, also tends to highlight poor gun handling skills. I wonder how many external mechanical safeties have prevented accidental discharges over the years? We'll never know.

To me a striker-fired pistol makes some sense due to increased potential reliability due to reduced number of parts. It is a simpler system -a Glock has what, 30-something total pieces to it, including pins and such. There is something to be said for the "simpler=better" argument. Consistent trigger pull every shot is also a positive factor, especially with new or little-trained users. And no hammer makes it very hard to have an AD that does not involve pulling the trigger.

Does the Glock (or similar) requirement that people not be stupid (ie keeping finger off trigger) make it a "worse" or "better" gun than all the rest? Who knows. But if it works for you, great. If not, there are many other choices. Find one that works for you and carry it. Safely please.

I am still at a loss why anyone blames THE GUN for firing when you pull the trigger.... the best gun safety is between your ears. If you shoot your leg when you draw, you are incompetant. The gun did what you told it to do. Get your friggin finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready to distroy what the gun is aimed at... that simple... This boils down to the most basic safety rules my dad taught me when I was about 8 yrs old. Gun safety is a lifestyle and should not chage with what gun you are using at the time.

[GhostDog]

that the only opinion we've come up with is the "numbers" argument. Does that mean then, that we accept that a certain percentage of gun handlers are more likely to shoot themselves (and that this percentage is relatively constant)? Is this a gun "problem"? Is the solution to saddle ALL shooters with less "shootable" guns in a life and death confrontation, all in the hope that this will somehow make this percentage more "safe"?

I will make another observation (for your consideration). We are talking about the dreaded "Glock leg" problem here for the most part. Why are we not discussing a problem with suspects being accidentally shot while being held at gunpoint? This has not changed and it doesn't matter what type of guns are involved. Could it be that people are being better trained for these high stress situations? What does that say about the "Glock leg" problem? Gun problem or training problem?

[TGO David]

wow, too many acronyms... I got lost... I am sure it is good info, but I am still learing to speak forum.

Common Forum Acronyms

[I_Like_Pie]

Every one of those ND was just that...people being careless and shooting themselves in the butt (both literally and figuratively). I'll bet none of them were due to the gun failing to function properly.

Glock makes a good handgun. Some people like them and some people don't. Same with many, many other manufacturers.

[Guest HunterH]

Common Forum Acronyms

ah, thank you my friend!

[Guest jackdog]

A gun without an external safety, has a high risk factor for people with bad habits or little or no training. This type of firearm requires 100% vigilance at all times. Getting complacent just once will get someone or your self hurt or killed. On the flip side not releasing a safety in a hostile situation will get you shot or killed also. I really think new carry people should consider a revolver to start out with. I also think it is pretty irresponsible for gun stores to push Glocks or Glock type weapons on people that do not have adequate training

[I_Like_Pie]

A gun without an external safety

Like a revolver...right?

[GhostDog]

If a percentage of "trained professionals" tend to shoot themselves, why should we expect anything different from the average (newbie) Joe? Do you really think a different gun will matter? How much "shootability" are you willing to trade off for the illusion of "safety"?

I know some trigger options are more tolerant of poor gun handling, but the same guns are harder to shoot fast and accurately, particularly in a reactive/defensive situation. You can't make other people "safe"; you can't force them to learn/train and you can't solve their software problems w/ hardware. It just won't work. And, frankly, I don't need "big brother" telling me what I need, even if he/she has good intentions based on his/her "extensive experience".

As to LEOs, I think we (as shooters) all spend too much time doing the "neat, ninja stuff" and not enough time practicing the basics. There's too much "high speed" BS and not enough learning to be competent, smooth gun handlers/shooters. It's much cooler to scan for UFOs and vampires while holstering than to actually watch what you're doing and to learn how to do it right. And it looks better on TV. How else can one explain a guy going through all sorts of running/jumping/repelling while shoot 30 targets without a miss... and then shooting himself during reholstering?

Of course, that's just my opinion.

[saintsfanbrian]

Jack, the problem is not always the gun store. Too many people watch Law & Order or Numbers or some other Cop show and see all of the cops carrying Glocks (U.S. Marshall's "Keep it in your suit unless I tell you to take it out. Get yourself a Glock and lose that nickel-plated sissy pistol")

They go to the dealer and say give me a Glock and the dealer wishing to make a sale gives the customer exactly what they ask for.

Now, as to why we "hear" about so many of the ND's from ANY weapon? It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that we are connected literally and figuratively to the entire world at every second of the day. You have a computer with instant access to news, 24 hour news networks, cell phones with news, youtube, newspapers etc. Years ago this type of story would have been a small blurb that no one knew about unless they lived in that town. Now I can get the Yazoo City Herald (http://www.yazooherald.net/news.html) on line. I can even get the Baden Baden Tablet - http://www.badisches-tagblatt.de/html/index.html

So, just as there are so many computer viruses written for Windows and almost none for Mac or Linux, the majority of the ND's that you will hear about are with Glocks.

[GhostDog]

You picked up on that too, huh? "Accepted wisdom" mixed with "what we think we know" just ends up a mess. It's all just another example of trying to solve a "software" problem with hardware. Ain't gonna happen. When you think you've made an idiot-proof product, someone comes up with a better idiot. They're just peeing up a rope, all the while patting themselves on the back because they're so "smart".

Jack, please don't take this as a personal attack. I don't mean it that way. I "learned" the same "common knowledge". It's just that, at some point, I came to see it as flawed (which is the nicest way I know to say what I really think about "common knowledge").

[Guest jackdog]

Saints, GD I do not take offense or disagree with what you guys are saying. I carry a G23 99.8 percent of the time. Standard factory trigger. I was not trying to blame gun shops. I realize these folks are in business to sell guns, I just think that a few of them could care less what they sell to whom. I heard a salesmen in a gun shop a couple of weeks ago tell a lady that a G-19 was the safest fire arm she could carry. That is true if you have good training and your head is on straight. I mention revolvers because they don't have a safety,but do have a heavier trigger pull, which does make them a lot safer than a Glock for a newer shooter. I agree that no gun is idiot proof, and idiots seem to be getting worse all the time.

[GhostDog]

It's too bad these days that most folks won't listen to you anyway. Try suggesting to a new shooter that they try a revolver in order to learn trigger control (this in spite of the fact that they ASKED you). It's just not "tactical" enough. It doesn't matter anyway because those same folks aren't going to make the effort to learn to use what they buy. Most men seem to think that, at birth, they can drive a car and shoot a gun. What's to learn, right? At least the ladies will admit when they don't know something.

In any case, I didn't start this thread to push my opinions. I want to hear what you guys think. I would still like to hear some opinions as to why LEOs seem to be shooting themselves, not during high stress encounters, but while doing routine gun handling.

It still never ceases to amaze me how quick we ("gun people") are to suggest that a problem can be "solved" by a different gun. Is it because it's more fun to talk about guns than to talk about learning the basics? Or is it because we are looking to "prove" our opinions and be recognized by our peers as an "expert"? I don't know. Maybe it's because one is a quick "fix" and the other requires an on-going commitment to WORK.

Anyone know a fireman who can't drag a hose or use an ax? If there were such an animal, would his/her boss suggest changing axes? Just something to think about.