Has anyone experienced a refusal to use the TGO face-to-face form?

[Guest dotsun]

Nevermind. Best of luck to you, sir.

I commend your good judgement on editing that post.

[Guest theolog]

[Good_Steward]

No way do I give out ALL of that personal info. I have no problem providing my name, number, and answer that I am legally allowed to own a firearm. More than that is just too much personal info to be handing out to strangers. If someone doesn't want to sell a firearm to me because of that, so be it.

[The Rabbi]

I commend your good judgement on editing that post.

It was minutes away from getting reported.

I guess if you can't provide cogent arguments or facts you attack the speaker's character.

[Guest dotsun]

No way do I give out ALL of that personal info. I have no problem providing my name, number, and answer that I am legally allowed to own a firearm. More than that is just too much personal info to be handing out to strangers. If someone doesn't want to sell a firearm to me because of that, so be it.

Exactly how I feel. If they want more info I'll happily go to a licensed FFL and they can pay the TICS check.

[Guest theolog]

I guess if you can't provide cogent arguments or facts you attack the speaker's character.

LOL, are you serious?

You haven't comprehended (or even read) my posts in their entirety if that is what you think.

Furthermore, your posts have been nothing but inappropriate, insulting and condescending from the get go. Perhaps you should take a look at your own rants before you make such an absurd assertion.

Good luck to you.

[Warbird]

I just read through 11 pages of this and I can safely say WOW! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! Off the radar? You're joking right? If you bought a used car from an individual you'd want a bill of sale right? That's all that form is. You guys that freak out over giving your information out need to chill.

I had this kid, just turned 21, come in wanting to buy a gun. Well he didn't want to fill out half the information on the 4473. I said OK, No gun then. He changed his mind, filled it out, then told me to destroy the form after I ran the check. No can do Skippy.

I've done one FTF in my life and that was with a close friend of mine, so I wasn't to worried about it. This is why I like consignment deals, it gets logged in and then back out under a BC. If I was doing an FTF and someone said no to that form, they are going home empty handed. Just my viewpoint on it.

This thread kinda reminds me of an old song "They're coming to take me away ho ho ha ha. To the funny farm where life is wonderful all the time!" :hat:

EDIT: In addition, can't this all be summed up by just saying what you want in advance? If you both agree to the form, awesome. If not, then no hard feelings.

No offense here, but you show your age with this post. You are too young to remember a time when our rights were against the wall and we had a government which was just looking for any reason to take more rights, to storm your house etc. There were politicians just salivating over a coming opportunity. But, they overstepped and got smacked down. Whether you realize it or not your rights are under asail again, and could be more so in the future. The UN is putting intense pressure to conform to more 'european ways'. A pro- UN pres and congress would mean huge fights and probably a return to fights at many state levels.

You don't understand the mentality of some here because you have lived in a time when we are fighting to get back more rights, not with your back to the wall to keep what we had. But, many of us remember full well.

I remember full well and I understand completely anyone who wishes to make some purchases w/o any paper trails. A receipt for a car is nothing, nothing in comparison to a gun. Nothing is, no constitutional rights under potential asail allows you to have a car or most any other product. But, the exercise of your 2nd amendment rights guarantee you the right to buy and own and bear arms, w/o the intrusion of the government knowing or potentially knowing what you own.

Katrina is a modern example but not the only one in US history. It doesn't surprise me, nor does it encourage me much to know that so many are so willing to capitulate.

I will also say if you hope to use some receipt as a potential contract in the efforts to protect yourself, you are fooling yourself. A contract entered into based on an illegality is void. It's like a non-compete or giving up your right to sue even when there's negligence. It's not usually worth the paper its printed on.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Warbird

[Guest mjwehrman]

No offense here, but you show your age with this post. You are too young to remember a time when our rights were against the wall and we had a government which was just looking for any reason to take more rights, to storm your house etc. There were politicians just salivating over a coming opportunity. But, they overstepped and got smacked down. Whether you realize it or not your rights are under asail again, and could be more so in the future. The UN is putting intense pressure to conform to more 'european ways'. A pro- UN pres and congress would mean huge fights and probably a return to fights at many state levels.

You don't understand the mentality of some here because you have lived in a time when we are fighting to get back more rights, not with your back to the wall to keep what we had. But, many of us remember full well.

I remember full well and I understand completely anyone who wishes to make some purchases w/o any paper trails. A receipt for a car is nothing, nothing in comparison to a gun. Nothing is, no constitutional rights under potential asail allows you to have a car or most any other product. But, the exercise of your 2nd amendment rights guarantee you the right to buy and own and bear arms, w/o the intrusion of the government knowing or potentially knowing what you own.

Katrina is a modern example but not the only one in US history. It doesn't surprise me, nor does it encourage me much to know that so many are so willing to capitulate.

I will also say if you hope to use some receipt as a potential contract in the efforts to protect yourself, you are fooling yourself. A contract entered into based on an illegality is void. It's like a non-compete or giving up your right to sue even when there's negligence. It's not usually worth the paper its printed on.

Well said.

I will admit that I am young but I still have the right to purchase firearms FTF without giving out personal information to a complete stranger. I choose to exercise that right. You may choose not to and that is your choice. I do not think less of you in any way. But, and I know this is hard for some of you to beleive, there will come a day when these rights are attacked and possibly destroyed. Maybe then you will understand my position. I am enjoying my freedoms while they still exist because I am not so naive that I can't see whats on the horizon.

[The Rabbi]

LOL, are you serious?

You haven't comprehended (or even read) my posts in their entirety if that is what you think.

Oy.

Let's rewind the tape here. I apologize to other members for this necessary task.

Here is your first reply:

I wouldn't bet my life or my livelihood that the answers to those questions are all in the negative

And from then on you dissimulated, merely asserted, refused to answer the question, provided no proof or argument other than to attack my argument and/or me personally.

Like this:

Certainly not this:

Or this:

Rhetorical games aside, you must have far more faith in DAs and juries than I do, because I wouldn't even bet my socks on them, their judgments or their verdicts.

Note the mere assertion here: you ave no faith in DAs or juries. Not based on anything and without any source of basis for such belief.

And another restatement here:

Answer what question? The silly one about what would I bet my life on? Nothing but love and God, that's about it. Surely not our judicial system.

Note the further assertion without proof or argument. I guess this must seem just too obvious to you.

So unable to answer the question, make the logical deduction (viz.that if you have that little faith in government justice then you shouldn't even carry a gun because you might be charged by a capricious and corrupt system) you revert to character attack:

You must have difficulty with reading comprehension. I'm so sorry.

No, I'm sorry. I am sorry that your attempts to sound sophisticated and worldly wise actually sound like sheeple bleating the same party line.

So the next time you want to have this conversation, please come with facts or theories or something other than [cues music] feeeliings, ohohoho feelings....

[Guest theolog]

You still haven't understood my posts and have drawn incorrect conclusions despite my explanations, and you continue to insult me.

So, whatever. Shalom.

Edited June 11, 2008 by theolog

[The Rabbi]

What have I misunderstood? What facts have you cited? What arguments have you made? I quoted your own posts. What more do you want?

You want to use the form? Go right ahead. But don't judge someone poorly because he refuses to sign a mickey mouse piece of paper. And don't think you're protecting yourself in any way by doing so. Because when "They" come knocking on your door, they're looking for you.

[Guest canynracer]

You two are going at it so much I cant tell if you are for or against the form!!

[Guest canynracer]

No offense here, but you show your age with this post. You are too young to remember a time when our rights were against the wall and we had a government which was just looking for any reason to take more rights, to storm your house etc. There were politicians just salivating over a coming opportunity. But, they overstepped and got smacked down. Whether you realize it or not your rights are under asail again, and could be more so in the future. The UN is putting intense pressure to conform to more 'european ways'. A pro- UN pres and congress would mean huge fights and probably a return to fights at many state levels.

You don't understand the mentality of some here because you have lived in a time when we are fighting to get back more rights, not with your back to the wall to keep what we had. But, many of us remember full well.

I remember full well and I understand completely anyone who wishes to make some purchases w/o any paper trails. A receipt for a car is nothing, nothing in comparison to a gun. Nothing is, no constitutional rights under potential asail allows you to have a car or most any other product. But, the exercise of your 2nd amendment rights guarantee you the right to buy and own and bear arms, w/o the intrusion of the government knowing or potentially knowing what you own.

Katrina is a modern example but not the only one in US history. It doesn't surprise me, nor does it encourage me much to know that so many are so willing to capitulate.

I will also say if you hope to use some receipt as a potential contract in the efforts to protect yourself, you are fooling yourself. A contract entered into based on an illegality is void. It's like a non-compete or giving up your right to sue even when there's negligence. It's not usually worth the paper its printed on.

No offense here, but, I find it funny that when someone (Punisher) uses their opinion to get their point across that they are "Too young to understand"....While I did not grow up during the civil war, that does not mean that having one fill out a bill of sale of SOME sort (doesnt have to be this form) is by any way shape or form infringing on any constitutional right.

If it is "not worth the paper its printed on" why not sign it?

for me, its called a reciept, a paper trail for ME to know that if ATF,cops, marines come knocking cause that gun was used to shoot our new president, I no longer have it.

That is my choice, and I am sure others as well....but lets not get our hats on so tight we mistake the right of that choice to attempt to challenge someone elses....just like I CHOOSE to let an officer know I am carrying...that is my CHOICE.

There are SEVERAL "youngsters" on this board that I would put into an intellectual debate with any of the "wise elders"....lets not dismiss the fact that although young, they still make sense, and should still be heard.

Edited June 11, 2008 by canynracer

[The Rabbi]

You two are going at it so much I cant tell if you are for or against the form!!

I'm on record as recommending a bill of sale referencing the firearm by make, model, caliber, and serial number.

I am opposed to anything more than that but what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own dealings is their business. Don't ask, don't tell.

[Guest canynracer]

I'm on record as recommending a bill of sale referencing the firearm by make, model, caliber, and serial number.

I am opposed to anything more than that but what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own dealings is their business. Don't ask, don't tell.

Ahh, Thanks!!!

[dariks]

At the risk of fanning the flames I have to disagree with this statement of yours.

No offense here, but, I find it funny that when someone (Punisher) uses logic to get their point across that they are "Too young to understand"....

The only portion of his post that can possibly be construed as logical is this.

Originally Posted by Punisher84

If you bought a used car from an individual you'd want a bill of sale right?

Everything else in his post is either an anecdote or opinion. Especially his first and last statement. (not counting the edit)

[Punisher84]

No offense here, but you show your age with this post. You are too young to remember a time when our rights were against the wall and we had a government which was just looking for any reason to take more rights, to storm your house etc.

That's your opinion. I see plenty of chances to fight for my rights in the future, so maybe one day I'll be up to snuff to post my opinions. I will not engage in another lengthy debate about my age, logic, experiences, etc.

No offense here, but, I find it funny that when someone (Punisher) uses logic to get their point across that they are "Too young to understand"....While I did not grow up during the civil war, that does not mean that having one fill out a bill of sale of SOME sort (doesnt have to be this form) is by any way shape or form infringing on any constitutional right.

If it is "not worth the paper its printed on" why not sign it?

for me, its called a reciept, a paper trail for ME to know that if ATF,cops, marines come knocking cause that gun was used to shoot our new president, I no longer have it.

That is my choice, and I am sure others as well....but lets not get our hats on so tight we mistake the right of that choice to attempt to challenge someone elses....just like I CHOOSE to let an officer know I am carrying...that is my CHOICE.

There are SEVERAL "youngsters" on this board that I would put into an intellectual debate with any of the "wise elders"....lets not dismiss the fact that although young, they still make sense, and should still be heard.

Canyn, thank you. Said it better than I could have.

I'm on record as recommending a bill of sale referencing the firearm by make, model, caliber, and serial number.

I am opposed to anything more than that but what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own dealings is their business. Don't ask, don't tell.

I agree with that statement. The form in question does not have to be what is used, but firearm info and a name and maybe DOB would be nice.

[Guest canynracer]

Everything else in his post is either an anecdote or opinion. . (not counting the edit)

fixed it to read his opinion....but that wasnt my point...either way, its fixed...lol

[Punisher84]

Everything else in his post is either an anecdote or opinion. Especially his first and last statement. (not counting the edit)

What are you getting at? This entire thread is based on opinions, nothing more. I'm really sorry I don't impress everyone over a certain age on here. I'll try and do better. It's ridiculous, this rhetoric of "Well they're young so their opinions have no weight, they lack experience, blah,blah,blah. With the exception of a few people here, none of you know me or anything about me. If you don't like my opinion that's fine, there will always be differences, but why attack my age, surely if you are older and wiser you can come up with a better argument then, "Oh you're young."

[Marswolf]

Boy, it's getting bad when I'm the least crabby guy on the board.

[Punisher84]

Boy, it's getting bad when I'm the least crabby guy on the board.

I wouldn't be crabby if I didn't get attacked every time I state MY opinion on a matter and then get blasted for being young. I've said it before and I will say it again, "It's not the years, it's the mileage." I deal with people twice my age day in and day out that don't know jack and couldn't form a free-thinking opinion about waffles, let alone debate constitutional rights.

I don't care if I'm agreed with, but until there is an age requirement here, and I'm obeying the rules, I'd at least like to hope my opinion could be debated and not my age.

Edit: Removed my age on my profile. Level the playing field a bit. Now maybe we can deal with issues and not birthdays.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Punisher84

[Smith]

Don't worry, most folks are looking for something other than logic and truth to validate their opinions. Mainly because they aren't all that sure the base for their "feelings" and opinions. Age, experience, ............... doesn't affect truth and logic. Age/experience can reinforce and it can also jade. The great changes in societies have always been driven by the "young" and "inexperienced".

[dariks]

What are you getting at? This entire thread is based on opinions, nothing more. I'm really sorry I don't impress everyone over a certain age on here. I'll try and do better. It's ridiculous, this rhetoric of "Well they're young so their opinions have no weight, they lack experience, blah,blah,blah. With the exception of a few people here, none of you know me or anything about me. If you don't like my opinion that's fine, there will always be differences, but why attack my age, surely if you are older and wiser you can come up with a better argument then, "Oh you're young."

Ok, first of all I never mentioned your age and frankly I don't care how old or young you are.

Second, I replied to canyn's post because at first it sounded like he was trying to say that your arguments were logic based when they clearly weren't.

I was trying to draw a distinction between opinion and logic, because I don't really like your opinions or your insinuation that we people who don't care for the FTF form need to just "chill" and that we are being overly paranoid.

s

[dariks]

Boy, it's getting bad when I'm the least crabby guy on the board.

You know the discussion is getting interesting and heated when Mars is the least crabby guy. You're kind of like a barometer for the board.

[Guest mjwehrman]

I just read through 11 pages of this and I can safely say WOW! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! Off the radar? You're joking right? If you bought a used car from an individual you'd want a bill of sale right? That's all that form is. You guys that freak out over giving your information out need to chill.

I had this kid, just turned 21, come in wanting to buy a gun. Well he didn't want to fill out half the information on the 4473. I said OK, No gun then. He changed his mind, filled it out, then told me to destroy the form after I ran the check. No can do Skippy.

I've done one FTF in my life and that was with a close friend of mine, so I wasn't to worried about it. This is why I like consignment deals, it gets logged in and then back out under a BC. If I was doing an FTF and someone said no to that form, they are going home empty handed. Just my viewpoint on it.

This thread kinda reminds me of an old song "They're coming to take me away ho ho ha ha. To the funny farm where life is wonderful all the time!"

EDIT: In addition, can't this all be summed up by just saying what you want in advance? If you both agree to the form, awesome. If not, then no hard feelings.

Ok lets get this out in the open. I really could not give a rats behind about your age because guess what....I'm the same damn age. You say that you are only speaking your opinion and age shouldn't matter. This is true. But your original post was not an opinion. It was intentionally making fun of people because you don't agree with them. Maybe some of the "wiser" people on this forum are right. Because if you think that this post quoted above is a simple statement of opinion, you have a very twisted perspective. Complain if you want punisher, but acting like you are in the 3rd grade will not get you respect here.