Has anyone experienced a refusal to use the TGO face-to-face form?

[Guest canynracer]

The key phrase in your post is "required by law." If it were up to me I'd take a copy of a person's driver's license to verify who he is and sell him the gun. But it isnt up to me. So I follow the law. Here, in private sales, there is no legal requirement to give or take that kind of information. So why do it?

As for copying the DL, I only do that when someone sells or trades a gun. Strictly speaking it isn't required by law but it is a good business practice.

Ummm...is that contradictory?

If I was selling/trading a gun to your shop, and you wanted to copy my DL.... it is not required by law, so skrew yew

seriously though....FTF, what information to you take/give? not through your shop, but FTF?

[Guest canynracer]

I suppose if someone wanted me to fill out one of those forms, this would be the route I would go. I'd feel much better giving my personal info to a gun shop as opposed to some dude I met on the internet. Of course, the seller would have to agree to pay the fee.

That defeats the whole "off the radar" , "no paperwork" thing doesnt it?

[Guest dotsun]

That defeats the whole "off the radar" , "no paperwork" thing doesnt it?

I suppose it does, but that has never been my point nor have I ever said either of those phrases in this thread.

[Guest mjwehrman]

I bought a gun 2 hours ago. Name and # only. No problem and everybody is happy. It's personal choice. If one member of the party wasn't comfortable, we would have walked away. No need to argue about it.

[Fallguy]

I hate to sound like someone else...but if the government wanted paperwork on FTF deals they would require it.

I could see the government saying, if you got all this information from them, you should have known they were an ex-felon, the gun you bought was stolen etc.....

As long as you both feel good about the transaction and have no obvious reason to suspect the other..it almost seems the less you know the better.

Plausible deniablity.

[Guest nj.piney]

personally, i only buy from people older then me. that way if there is a problem, they wont remember, wont be able to find the information,or will have died.

[creeky]

personally, i only buy from people older then me. that way if there is a problem, they wont remember, wont be able to find the information,or will have died.

Now THAT is FUNNY!!!! Bwahahaha!!!!

[mac12]

Look, this thread could go on for hundreds of pages. I really hope we aren't dettering anyone from trading here on the forums. Some people swear by the FTF form and getting personal info to CYA. I have no problem with this. It is perfectly rational. But I won't fill one out. I have no hard feelings against the guy who asks me to. But to imply that anyone who refuses to fill out this form is intending to use the gun for illegal purposes is outright slander and just plain ignorance. By that logic I could easily claim that everyone who wants one of these forms filled out is actually an ATF agent intentinally selling me a stolen firearm and getting the bill of sale so that he can bust me next week.

That may seem a little far fetched to you but so is someone thinking im just a thug wanting a piece so I can roll through the hood in my impala doin drivebys.

Name and Phone number are a given. MAYBE even an address if I feel comfortable with the seller. But, DL#, SSN, Blood type, stool sample, and vaccination records cross the line. With me it has nothing to do with the gun, I dont give that info out to anybody. 2 members of my family have had their identities stolen. Personal info these days is alot more dangerous than it used to be. And yes, I don't want the gov't knowing what I have. I have a few guns that can be buried and hidden so they dont find them. Do I think this is going to happen? No. But I'm ready if it does.

So if you want a FTF form, we can go have a beer. But I'm not buying your gun. And I don't think any less of you. But I find these people who think less of me because of my views and stance on the subject downright infuriating.

+1 Name, address, and phone number should be sufficent, plus a signature. If you have a name you can probably find the rest over the internet anyway. Just this bit of information will prove that you didn't arbitrarily buy or sell a weapon illegally.

[Guest theolog]

+1 Name, address, and phone number should be sufficent, plus a signature.

Read back a couple pages. A lot of folks even find that unreasonable.

[DavidD]

Playing devils advocate here, but why is it good business practice to get a drivers license when your business buys a gun but not when you buy a gun from an individual?

I agree. Rabi? BTW Karhman, I would have filled out the form last Saturday if you'd asked..........

[Guest grimel]

The assumption being that without evidence to prove otherwise, there is now reasonable suspicion that the buyer stole the firearm himself.

And here I thought in the USA, it was up to the DA to PROVE you broke a law with the ASSUMPTION of innocent until proven guilty.

[Guest grimel]

How would one go about this?

you can call the local police. I did that when someone wanted to sell me a gun at a VERY low price. Ended up the moron was selling a pistol his grandfather left him in his will.

TBI has a number just for checking numbers.

[Guest grimel]

This thread has brings to mind a concern I have about selling a gun I have.

I have a .40S&W Witness that I have been thinking about selling, but it is the only handgun I own that I know for certian is without paperwork as I bought it from a family friend who did not use any paperwork. I have been holding on to it in case the unthinkable happens and Obama sends out the gun grabbers. I do not want to be completely disarmed. I suspect this is unfounded paranoia and I should sell/trade the witness (a match style gun) to get a defensive gun that I would rather have at this point.

Is there any logic to my hesitation to sell the Witness??

Well, they know you have it now.

[Guest nraforlife]

Sounds a lot like closing the so called 'Gun Show' loophole to me....

[Guest grimel]

meone thinking im just a thug wanting a piece so I can roll through the hood in my impala doin drivebys.

Name and Phone number are a given. MAYBE even an address if I feel comfortable with the seller. But, DL#, SSN, Blood type, stool sample, and vaccination records cross the line. With me it has nothing to do with the gun, I dont give that info out to anybody. 2 members of my family have had their identities stolen. Personal info these days is alot more dangerous than it used to be.

I had a $5,500 credit card bill come up during my security clearance investigation from Washington state.

[Guest grimel]

Playing devils advocate here, but why is it good business practice to get a drivers license when your business buys a gun but not when you buy a gun from an individual?

Because he has a little line in his book

[Guest grimel]

#1 - The cops and ATF are going to ask a private citizen where the gun they were in possession of came from also.

But, he is REQUIRED to log the information in his transaction book, I ain't.

[Luckyforward]

No, there is no legal requirement to have the form, BUT if I sell a gun and someone does something STUPID with it, I want to show GOOD FAITH that I have documented the sale as much as possible and did not sell to someone WITHOUT being able to show my ATTEMPT to record information.

[R1100R]

We are not talking about selling a used lawn mower. Some stated the DA would have to prove his case. The issue is what leads up to the point that the charges would go to the DA.

I don't know about the TBI but the GBI in Georgia is ruthless and efficient. They did not ask my friend, they took him to their local office to get a statement. He even had a receipt. They copied the receipt then took his statement. They had him come back to identify the person he got it from. They were polite to him. But very intense. Those were his words. Without the receipt he was in possession of a stolen gun. They informed him he would of went to jail without it. Saying I purchased it out of the newspaper was not going to fly.

[The Rabbi]

It doesn't matter whether it is a weapon or a lawnmower.

Here is the TN Code on defenses for possessing stolen property:

It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under §§ 39-14-103, 39-14-104 and 39-14-106 that the person:

(1) Acted under an honest claim of right to the property or service involved;

(2) Acted in the honest belief that the person had the right to obtain or exercise control over the property or service as the person did; or

(3) Obtained or exercised control over property or service honestly believing that the owner, if present, would have consented.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1030, § 19.]

[Humble]

Especially after Katrina and the treatment of gun owners...

Especially watching the continuous attacks on our 2A rights...

Any gun I own that does NOT have a paper trail is worth more to me. I am more likely to be able to keep it if things unravel.

[HillbillyMafia]

I wouldnt refuse to fill one out, but prefer not to. they hold no legal value, I can print one up, fill it out with john does name and bury my gun in the background. discussed this point with a lawyer in Knoxville and advice was whatever, but dont expect it to get you out of trouble in court, its not a get out of jail free card

[R1100R]

All that is true once you get to court for your defense. Ask the LEO's on this board

if they care at the initial finding of the stolen property. I bought it from some guy is

not going to get it.

[The Rabbi]

LE's will tell you that you could get the death penalty for littering.

What prosecutor is going to go after Joe Citizen for an honest mistake? What grand jury will issue a true bill? What petty jury will convict?

It isn't worth it to them to charge honest citizens.

[R1100R]

Rabbi, you are right about these thing once you get to court. The process is being arrested, going before a magistrate,making bail,getting a laywer then having your day in court.