Has anyone experienced a refusal to use the TGO face-to-face form?

[mdlave]

If the form is not enough to protect you from possible future misuse by the new owner of the gun, what would be? I'm thinking something more substantial than your recollection of the buyer's character.

Is there a database of FFL sales on the state or (God forbid) federal level?

[Guest theolog]

I'm really glad the forum has this form. It will help to more easily steer me clear of those I shouldn't be selling guns to anyway.

At minimum, I wouldn't sell a gun without seeing a person's driver's license and writing down the information. I guess you guys would refuse that as well. Of course the information on your DL is all public record anyway.

As someone else said, these kinds of bills of sale seems like common sense to me.

Edited June 5, 2008 by theolog

[Smith]

If the form is not enough to protect you from possible future misuse by the new owner of the gun, what would be? I'm thinking something more substantial than your recollection of the buyer's character.

Is there a database of FFL sales on the state or (God forbid) federal level?

No and by law there can't be. Part of the stink over Reno (among many) was she was keeping the ATF forms longer than the maximum 60(?) days. By federal law they have to be destroyed after that. Guns are not "registered" anyway.

[mdlave]

Can anyone point to an actual example of an attempted use of this (or equivalent) form in court or during some criminal investigation?

[musicman]

I like the idea of a sale log with signatures only. I have purchased and sold guns with NO paperwork before. Like Hunter and others have mentioned, I like the idea of having a number of pieces with no paper trail in case the grabbers get their way. (Look through history... it happens)

I think, however, that I will start a log with type, model, serial number, date, and signatures for future purchases and sales. I don't see how this private, personal log would affect my situtation if the gun grabbers came. I'd just hide/destroy the log and be done with it.

I'm glad I read this thread.

[Guest mjwehrman]

Look, this thread could go on for hundreds of pages. I really hope we aren't dettering anyone from trading here on the forums. Some people swear by the FTF form and getting personal info to CYA. I have no problem with this. It is perfectly rational. But I won't fill one out. I have no hard feelings against the guy who asks me to. But to imply that anyone who refuses to fill out this form is intending to use the gun for illegal purposes is outright slander and just plain ignorance. By that logic I could easily claim that everyone who wants one of these forms filled out is actually an ATF agent intentinally selling me a stolen firearm and getting the bill of sale so that he can bust me next week.

That may seem a little far fetched to you but so is someone thinking im just a thug wanting a piece so I can roll through the hood in my impala doin drivebys.

Name and Phone number are a given. MAYBE even an address if I feel comfortable with the seller. But, DL#, SSN, Blood type, stool sample, and vaccination records cross the line. With me it has nothing to do with the gun, I dont give that info out to anybody. 2 members of my family have had their identities stolen. Personal info these days is alot more dangerous than it used to be. And yes, I don't want the gov't knowing what I have. I have a few guns that can be buried and hidden so they dont find them. Do I think this is going to happen? No. But I'm ready if it does.

So if you want a FTF form, we can go have a beer. But I'm not buying your gun. And I don't think any less of you. But I find these people who think less of me because of my views and stance on the subject downright infuriating.

[Guest slothful1]

The seller denied ever having sold the firearm to the buyer. There was no bill of sale to back up the seller's claim, so the buyer could end up facing some serious jail time as the result of owning a stolen firearm. The assumption being that without evidence to prove otherwise, there is now reasonable suspicion that the buyer stole the firearm himself.

"Suspicion" does not constitute proving beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the threshold for facing jail time. I find it hard to believe a DA would prosecute on such flimsy basis, unless there were other factors that pointed to theft by the buyer.

Secondly, suppose the buyer had held on to the gun for a year or two and then sold it to a third party, providing a bill of sale for the new transaction only, and then THAT person got into the self-defense matter w/ police involvement. The paperwork will once again lead back to the buyer, so he's equally screwed. In other words, if you obtained a gun off the books, it would seem safest to get rid of it that way, too.

[memphismason]

I have all my guns inventoried on my computer (picture of firearm, make and model number). When I sell one of these inventoried guns, I make myself a sales receipt, and scan it in the computer and attach it to the same file. If the buyer would like a copy of the sales receipt, he or she is more than welcome to it, if not then I don't make them take it.

I am not required by law to do this, but I do it on my own. I do not ever bring the buyer into my world of paper work, unless they want a copy or something. Then I will give them what I have.

That is my idea of covering my butt. If the ATF come a knocking, I will print off my sheet that has the picture, make, model number, and scanned image of a sales receipt.

If someone does this after they sell a firearm to me then that is fine. As I said before Phone number, name, and I will sign a sales receipt ie bill of sale, and that is as far as I will go on a face to face transaction.

I met a fellow TGO Board member at the Range a Month or so ago. I bought a pistol from him. He looked like a decent young man, and I guess I appeared as a decent young man to him. We talked for about 20 minutes or so, I handed him the money, we shoke hands, and I left with a very nice pistol. No Paper work. Now if I would have looked like a "hoodrat" I doubt he would have sold me the gun. If he would have required me to fill out that form in full, then I wguess I wouldn't have bought the gun.....well on second thought I probably would have.....I really liked the gun.

Edited June 5, 2008 by memphismason

[memphismason]

Look, this thread could go on for hundreds of pages. I really hope we aren't dettering anyone from trading here on the forums. Some people swear by the FTF form and getting personal info to CYA. I have no problem with this. It is perfectly rational. But I won't fill one out. I have no hard feelings against the guy who asks me to. But to imply that anyone who refuses to fill out this form is intending to use the gun for illegal purposes is outright slander and just plain ignorance. By that logic I could easily claim that everyone who wants one of these forms filled out is actually an ATF agent intentinally selling me a stolen firearm and getting the bill of sale so that he can bust me next week.

That may seem a little far fetched to you but so is someone thinking im just a thug wanting a piece so I can roll through the hood in my impala doin drivebys.

Name and Phone number are a given. MAYBE even an address if I feel comfortable with the seller. But, DL#, SSN, Blood type, stool sample, and vaccination records cross the line. With me it has nothing to do with the gun, I dont give that info out to anybody. 2 members of my family have had their identities stolen. Personal info these days is alot more dangerous than it used to be. And yes, I don't want the gov't knowing what I have. I have a few guns that can be buried and hidden so they dont find them. Do I think this is going to happen? No. But I'm ready if it does.

So if you want a FTF form, we can go have a beer. But I'm not buying your gun. And I don't think any less of you. But I find these people who think less of me because of my views and stance on the subject downright infuriating.

Well said

[Guest gcrookston]

I don't really give a fiddler's flatulance about a form or bill of sale. But I do want to know who I am dealing with. I provide bills of sale out of courtesy and I keep track of what I've transacted with who. I have no problem giving an individual my contact and DL info. They won't get my SS#, though (although I will provide it to a Lics dealer for the purpose of a transfer). When selling guns on GB I always provide a copy of my DL and a "statement of final disposition" i.e. a discription of the firearm and buyer's info -- mostly to help the receiving FFL process the transfer. I know this isn't required by law, but neither is locking your front door when you go shopping.

[Woody]

......Name and Phone number are a given. MAYBE even an address if I feel comfortable with the seller. But, DL#, SSN, Blood type, stool sample, and vaccination records cross the line. With me it has nothing to do with the gun, I dont give that info out to anybody. 2 members of my family have had their identities stolen. Personal info these days is alot more dangerous than it used to be. And yes, I don't want the gov't knowing what I have. I have a few guns that can be buried and hidden so they dont find them. Do I think this is going to happen? No. But I'm ready if it does.

So if you want a FTF form, we can go have a beer. But I'm not buying your gun. And I don't think any less of you. But I find these people who think less of me because of my views and stance on the subject downright infuriating.

That pretty much sums it up for me also.

Name and number is enough, if that.

[Guest jp79]

I am on the middle with this one. If it is a gun that i plan on carrying or using as a nightstand gun I want paperwork. In my mind Name and DL number are a must. I dont want your address and i could care less about your phone number. But if i do use the gun or am stopped while carrying and an officer wants to run a check i want the piece of mind. Now it is very unlikely that i will buy a gun from someone i dont know very well, for that purpose. In most cases i would like to know they purchased it new. So paperwork there would probably never be an issue.

If it is a gun that i just want in the safe and maybe take out and shoot occasionally i would refuse the paperwork too. Because i wouldnt give my information so how could i expect theirs.

Just all depends to me. But i do see a need to keep one of the forms handy.

[The Rabbi]

Everyone should read this reply and take heed...

There is actually, ongoing at this moment, a situation involving a person that I am aware of who purchased a firearm from someone else in a face-to-face deal and did not receive a bill of sale. This transaction involves two people who came together as buyer and seller after a for-sale post on an Internet forum!

The buyer ended up having to use the firearm in a self defense situation. When the police did the normal investigation that follows one of these events, they found that the firearm in question had been stolen.

The seller denied ever having sold the firearm to the buyer. There was no bill of sale to back up the seller's claim, so the buyer could end up facing some serious jail time as the result of owning a stolen firearm. The assumption being that without evidence to prove otherwise, there is now reasonable suspicion that the buyer stole the firearm himself.

So what would have been an otherwise justified use of force in self-defense has now turned into a legal nightmare for an innocent party.

If that's the kind of thing you want to set yourself up for, then by all means you should do private, off the record transactions with people who refuse to sign the form that we've provided or refuse to provide you with a bill of sale. People like Kiwkrnu or The Rabbi who like things "off the radar".

Let's clear the air here a minute.

First I am on record as not opposing a simple bill of sale, referencing the gun and serial number.

Second, even that bill of sale would not help in the situation Tungsten outlines. "There is reasonable suspicion he stole the gun himself." Horse hockey. Was the guy there where the gun was stolen? Did he know the original owner? Is he the kind of person who goes around stealing stuff? No one is going to get prosecuted because he did something legal, i.e. bought a gun in a FTF sale.

I took in a gun that was stolen. Cops came (eventually) to pick it up and asked where it came from. I gave them the seller's name, telephone number, even showed them a copy of his driver's license (which is why I make them). I later asked the guy, a regular customer, if he had heard from them. Not a peep.

Third, the forum form is BS in the extreme and I consider it an invasion of my privacy. Why do I have to declare to you, in writing, that I am legal? It is the equivalent of letting the police officer search my car. Skrew yew.

[Mike.357]

Right on Rabbi!!

[creeky]

Let's clear the air here a minute.

First I am on record as not opposing a simple bill of sale, referencing the gun and serial number...

I gave them the seller's name, telephone number, even showed them a copy of his driver's license (which is why I make them).

Why do I have to declare to you, in writing, that I am legal? It is the equivalent of letting the police officer search my car.

Rabbi...

If you feel so strongly about personal privacy in regards

to Firearm purchases, how can you in a good conscious sell firearms

that require by law you to keep information that you yourself are uncomfortable giving out? Much less go beyound the requirement and keep

copies of DL's of your buyers? (I'm not sure that any FFL I have dealt

with has ever made a copy of my DL. Though I could be wrong.)

I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand your strong convictions given that you are a FFL seller. I'm just curious.

Myself this seems like a moot point. If someone wants to fill out a piece

of paper then do so... if not... don't.

[Guest Mugster]

How would one go about this?

Take it to the gunshop of your choice and let them run the number. You can try calling the police directly, but I'd not do that unless you are personal friends with a lawdog. You do stand to lose your firearm this way, but "let the buyer beware", thats my motto.

Anytime I buy a used firearm (i think i've bought 3 in my life), I'd run the number. There's no telling where it came from. Estate sales are pretty safe...its like using a condom. If yer gonna ride, put a helmut on that thing.

No cheesy form is going to do any good imo. A real crook will have a fake DL anyway, imo. You pays your monies and takes your chances, unless you know the seller.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Mugster

[Guest Major Pain]

If you have your gun dealer run the serial # and the gun comes back stolen does the dealer have to turn it in to Police?-----Mike

[Guest Mugster]

If you have your gun dealer run the serial # and the gun comes back stolen does the dealer have to turn it in to Police?-----Mike

Duh.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi...

If you feel so strongly about personal privacy in regards

to Firearm purchases, how can you in a good conscious sell firearms

that require by law you to keep information that you yourself are uncomfortable giving out? Much less go beyound the requirement and keep

copies of DL's of your buyers? (I'm not sure that any FFL I have dealt

with has ever made a copy of my DL. Though I could be wrong.)

I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand your strong convictions given that you are a FFL seller. I'm just curious.

Myself this seems like a moot point. If someone wants to fill out a piece

of paper then do so... if not... don't.

The key phrase in your post is "required by law." If it were up to me I'd take a copy of a person's driver's license to verify who he is and sell him the gun. But it isnt up to me. So I follow the law. Here, in private sales, there is no legal requirement to give or take that kind of information. So why do it?

As for copying the DL, I only do that when someone sells or trades a gun. Strictly speaking it isn't required by law but it is a good business practice.

[KahrMan]

The key phrase in your post is "required by law." If it were up to me I'd take a copy of a person's driver's license to verify who he is and sell him the gun. But it isnt up to me. So I follow the law. Here, in private sales, there is no legal requirement to give or take that kind of information. So why do it?

As for copying the DL, I only do that when someone sells or trades a gun. Strictly speaking it isn't required by law but it is a good business practice.

Playing devils advocate here, but why is it good business practice to get a drivers license when your business buys a gun but not when you buy a gun from an individual?

[The Rabbi]

Because the cops and ATF are going to ask me where I got it from. I will also be out the money if I paid for the gun before running it. As a dealer I suspect I am held to a much higher standard than Joe Citizen.

If someone wants to get all that info from a seller, he is welcome to try.

Heck I'd offer anyone wanting to do a transfer to come by and for $30 I'll run it through my book. The seller knows the buyer is legal and the buyer knows the gun is clean. Think of it as insurance. And in the future the Feds will probably require that anyway.

[Guest dotsun]

Heck I'd offer anyone wanting to do a transfer to come by and for $30 I'll run it through my book. The seller knows the buyer is legal and the buyer knows the gun is clean. Think of it as insurance. And in the future the Feds will probably require that anyway.

I suppose if someone wanted me to fill out one of those forms, this would be the route I would go. I'd feel much better giving my personal info to a gun shop as opposed to some dude I met on the internet. Of course, the seller would have to agree to pay the fee.

[dariks]

People who refuse to use a FTF form or bill of sale make me think twice about selling to them. And there is no such thing as a gun that is "off the radar" unless it is one you built yourself. All guns have an owner and a history attached to them at some point, on some document, somewhere.

True but when I say "off the radar" I am more referring to the fact that there is no paper trail anywhere of my purchase.

And if my refusal to use a FTF means that you won't sell to me that is absolutely your right. If I want the gun badly enough or if the deal is that great and you require me to fill out a FTF form then I guess I don't have much choice.

[Guest canynracer]

I don't really give a fiddler's flatulance about a form or bill of sale. But I do want to know who I am dealing with. I provide bills of sale out of courtesy and I keep track of what I've transacted with who. I have no problem giving an individual my contact and DL info. They won't get my SS#, though (although I will provide it to a Lics dealer for the purpose of a transfer). When selling guns on GB I always provide a copy of my DL and a "statement of final disposition" i.e. a discription of the firearm and buyer's info -- mostly to help the receiving FFL process the transfer. I know this isn't required by law, but neither is locking your front door when you go shopping.

WooHOO!!! +2

[TGO David]

(#1)Because the cops and ATF are going to ask me where I got it from. (#2)I will also be out the money if I paid for the gun before running it. (#3)As a dealer I suspect I am held to a much higher standard than Joe Citizen.

#1 - The cops and ATF are going to ask a private citizen where the gun they were in possession of came from also.

#2 - The private citizen is also going to be out the money they paid for the gun if it is confiscated. And perhaps have their ass in the sling also.

#3 - If you are incorporated, you as an employee or officer of the company are less liable than the corporation itself is. If you are not incorporated, then you are as culpable as Joe Citizen.

Really it sounds to me like what you're saying is that what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander. Unless the gander is off the clock and buying/selling privately.