Has anyone experienced a refusal to use the TGO face-to-face form?

[Guest theolog]

What prosecutor is going to go after Joe Citizen for an honest mistake? What grand jury will issue a true bill? What petty jury will convict?

I wouldn't bet my life or my livelihood that the answers to those questions are all in the negative.

[winchesterjimi]

I purchased an old S&W K38 from a friend,he bought it from the original owner, The original owner reported it stolen and claimed it on his insurance.......I sold it to the County Commissioner the day that I bought it , and told him it was O.K. to have the #'s run ... Thank God I had enough sense to get a receipt or I would have ben arrested when I showed up at the P.D. to explain how it came into my posession.

[Guest Phantom6]

How would one go about this?

Take it down to your local gunshop and ask them to "run" it for you. There is no charge from the TICS div of the DOS for this service.

[DaveTN]

I don’t see where it is even an issue as long as both parties lay out their requirements prior to meeting.

Prior to getting my C&R I told the people I sold to that I would need to see a photo ID issued by the state of Tennessee. I only needed to know that I was not selling to a minor or an out-of-state resident.

Now that I have a C&R I have to keep logs of what I have and where they go. So names and addresses are required. I don’t mess with any of the criminal background questions because they are not required. The State nor the Feds has made background checks available to me and they only require that I not sell to someone that I know to be ineligible to purchase.

I have heard stories of ATF agents making illegal transactions (from forum ads) and arresting the sellers. I don’t know if they are true or not but I have had people respond to my ads from other states and saying they could meet me in my area. That would be a pretty expensive trap to fall into.

[DaveTN]

All that is true once you get to court for your defense. Ask the LEO's on this board

if they care at the initial finding of the stolen property. I bought it from some guy is not going to get it.

Possession of a stolen firearm in Illinois was a felony when I was a cop. I couldn’t let someone go if I wanted to. I had to take them in and turn them over to the Detective Bureau; they would interview them and between them and the States Attorney on duty they would determine if they were going to be arrested/charged or not.

But one of the forum FFL’s told me Tennessee has no such law. I haven’t bothered to check.

Being found innocent at trial or even having charges dismissed can be pretty expensive.

[Guest theolog]

Being found innocent at trial or even having charges dismissed can be pretty expensive.

And even being charged with a felony can ruin a career at minimum.

[The Rabbi]

I wouldn't bet my life or my livelihood that the answers to those questions are all in the negative.

Then what would you bet your life on? 'Cause if that's your standard for action then you ought to just sell all your guns now.

There isn't a shoot in the world that cannot be second-guessed by some DA somewhere. But as to actual record I suspect that the honest-Joe homeowner gets off far more often, even where the evidence is extremely biased against him.

[Guest theolog]

Then what would you bet your life on?

Certainly not this:

What prosecutor is going to go after Joe Citizen for an honest mistake? What grand jury will issue a true bill? What petty jury will convict?

[The Rabbi]

Certainly not this:

OK. So what will you bet your life on?

Because all of those things will factor into any shooting as well.

Heck you might as well just lie down in the gutter and die. That way the DA can't indict you.

[Guest theolog]

OK. So what will you bet your life on?

Because all of those things will factor into any shooting as well.

Heck you might as well just lie down in the gutter and die. That way the DA can't indict you.

Rhetorical games aside, you must have far more faith in DAs and juries than I do, because I wouldn't even bet my socks on them, their judgments or their verdicts. That isn't a chance I'm willing to take with the conversation at hand; which, incidentally, has nothing to do with refusal to use deadly force, so your cute little example is completely irrelevant.

[The Rabbi]

It isn't a question of faith but practicality and history. If you want to go all on it then go right ahead.

And since you refuse to answer the question I guess your contribution to this thread is at an end.

[Guest theolog]

It isn't a question of faith but practicality and history. If you want to go all on it then go right ahead.

And since you refuse to answer the question I guess your contribution to this thread is at an end.

Answer what question? The silly one about what would I bet my life on? Nothing but love and God, that's about it. Surely not our judicial system.

This is the first time I've been accused of being tinfoil, but whatever.

Since I started this thread, I think I'll feel free to stick around. And you still haven't addressed your overt, marked hypocrisy regarding the original question about private sales and a bill of sale.

Edited June 11, 2008 by theolog

[The Rabbi]

OK, so your statement about not betting your life on it is pretty well meaningless since you won't bet your life on anything else either.

As for my supposed "hypocrisy", I have answered that previously.

[Guest theolog]

OK, so your statement about not betting your life on it is pretty well meaningless since you won't bet your life on anything else either.

As for my supposed "hypocrisy", I have answered that previously.

You must have difficulty with reading comprehension. I'm so sorry.

Your unrelated nonsensical banter that has nothing to do with the primary focus of this thread is what is meaningless, and somewhat irritating.

[The Rabbi]

No my comprehension is just fine. Your powers of logic are faulty. If you say you wouldn't bet on something that is only meaningful if there is something you would bet on. Otherwise it is simply a rhetorical flourish.

So your comment, and lack of any logical argument or fact to back it up, are pretty well without meaning, except as some expression of your [cues Barry Manilow] feeelings.

[Punisher84]

I just read through 11 pages of this and I can safely say WOW! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! Off the radar? You're joking right? If you bought a used car from an individual you'd want a bill of sale right? That's all that form is. You guys that freak out over giving your information out need to chill.

I had this kid, just turned 21, come in wanting to buy a gun. Well he didn't want to fill out half the information on the 4473. I said OK, No gun then. He changed his mind, filled it out, then told me to destroy the form after I ran the check. No can do Skippy.

I've done one FTF in my life and that was with a close friend of mine, so I wasn't to worried about it. This is why I like consignment deals, it gets logged in and then back out under a BC. If I was doing an FTF and someone said no to that form, they are going home empty handed. Just my viewpoint on it.

This thread kinda reminds me of an old song "They're coming to take me away ho ho ha ha. To the funny farm where life is wonderful all the time!"

EDIT: In addition, can't this all be summed up by just saying what you want in advance? If you both agree to the form, awesome. If not, then no hard feelings.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Punisher84
Add-on info.

[dariks]

[Guest kwikrnu]

I just read through 11 pages of this and I can safely say WOW! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! Off the radar? You're joking right? If you bought a used car from an individual you'd want a bill of sale right? That's all that form is. You guys that freak out over giving your information out need to chill.

I had this kid, just turned 21, come in wanting to buy a gun. Well he didn't want to fill out half the information on the 4473. I said OK, No gun then. He changed his mind, filled it out, then told me to destroy the form after I ran the check. No can do Skippy.

I've done one FTF in my life and that was with a close friend of mine, so I wasn't to worried about it. This is why I like consignment deals, it gets logged in and then back out under a BC. If I was doing an FTF and someone said no to that form, they are going home empty handed. Just my viewpoint on it.

This thread kinda reminds me of an old song "They're coming to take me away ho ho ha ha. To the funny farm where life is wonderful all the time!"

Cars have titles and need to be registered, guns do not.

You're 23 and you call a 21 yo man a kid?

It was explained earlier in the thread how a receipt with identifiable information can be turned over to the police.

[Guest canynracer]

"Cant we all just get along?" - Rodney King

OK. So what will you bet your life on?

Because all of those things will factor into any shooting as well.

Heck you might as well just lie down in the gutter and die. That way the DA can't indict you.

No, no, no....he may have Ashley big dots...

[Guest theolog]

No my comprehension is just fine. Your powers of logic are faulty. If you say you wouldn't bet on something that is only meaningful if there is something you would bet on. Otherwise it is simply a rhetorical flourish.

So your comment, and lack of any logical argument or fact to back it up, are pretty well without meaning, except as some expression of your [cues Barry Manilow] feeelings.

This could have actually been a conducive discussion had you decided to not go on the offensive and attempt to be so condescending and insulting.

Ah, logical criticism from someone who asks questions that have no logical connection to the actual issue. Since you're an expert in logic, you must be familiar with the straw man and/or red herring arguments you are attempting to utilize, as well as the fact that universal affirmative or universal negative statements are rarely true, particularly when asserted in hyperbolic simplicity, as you have done here.

You're a real hammer with this, and you don't seem to be open to actual conversation, or understanding another's point because you're so committed to your trust of prosecutors and juries in a FTF gun sale that goes south.

This is what we keep coming back to: Do you really think in your heart of hearts that "a prosecutor [won't] go after Joe Citizen for an honest mistake?" Do you really think that a "grand jury [won't] issue a true bill" and that a "petty jury [won't] convict?" Honest mistakes are not a defense to breaking the law, which is why I will do everything I can to demonstrate that I did every thing I could to insure that the law was being followed. And that means getting the a bill of sale for a firearms transaction. This isn't groundless as you try to claim, but based in 10 years of watching DAs and juries do some weird stuff, so I would not "trust my life" to them.

I did answer your silly and unrelated question. I said "God and love"...I guessed you missed that part, or else those are just not "meaningful" in your world. I sincerely hope that is not the case, since you have chosen "rabbi" as your handle.

Edited June 11, 2008 by theolog

[Guest theolog]

No, no, no....he may have Ashley big dots...

Ha. Nah, just Meprolights on my G19.

[Guest strelcevina]

let me give you my 0.2$

any type of transaction forms are legal peace of paper, if signed.

if you sign a peace of paper saying, that i gave you 5K, trust me you legally own me 5K

so selling a serious tool, as a gun , i would make sure that i have some signed peace of paper,

that being said.

who ever refuses to sign a peace of paper, that will become legal.

is a sign that something is not right. so transaction to me is NO GO:cool:

[The Rabbi]

This could have actually been a conducive discussion had you decided to not go on the offensive and attempt to be so condescending and insulting.

Ah, logical criticism from someone who asks questions that have no logical connection to the actual issue. Since you're an expert in logic, you must be familiar with the straw man and/or red herring arguments you are attempting to utilize, as well as the fact that universal affirmative or universal negative statements are rarely true, particularly when asserted in hyperbolic simplicity, as you have done here.

You're a real hammer with this, and you don't seem to be open to actual conversation, or understanding another's point because you're so committed to your trust of prosecutors and juries in a FTF gun sale that goes south.

This is what we keep coming back to: Do you really think in your heart of hearts that "a prosecutor [won't] go after Joe Citizen for an honest mistake?" Do you really think that a "grand jury [won't] issue a true bill" and that a "petty jury [won't] convict?" Honest mistakes are not a defense to breaking the law, which is why I will do everything I can to demonstrate that I did every thing I could to insure that the law was being followed. And that means getting the a bill of sale for a firearms transaction. This isn't groundless as you try to claim, but based in 10 years of watching DAs and juries do some weird stuff, so I would not "trust my life" to them.

I did answer your silly and unrelated question. I said "God and love"...I guessed you missed that part, or else those are just not "meaningful" in your world. I sincerely hope that is not the case, since you have chosen "rabbi" as your handle.

You have yet to provide one shred or iota of evidence other than paranoid suspicion of "authorities." I have mentioned what happened to my customer who actually attempted to sell me a stolen gun (cliffnotes version: nothing) as well as citing the TN statute about it, showing that it takes more than mere possession to make a conviction.

But you have ignored all that. Instead you want to posture and emote and show how committed you are to being anti establishment because--gosh--you just don't trust them. How original and well founded of you.

But since you cannot muster anything beyond "feelings" this one's for you

[And apologies--my memory isnt what it was and the song was actually by Morris Albert]

[ame]

[/ame]

[Fallguy]

EDIT: In addition, can't this all be summed up by just saying what you want in advance? If you both agree to the form, awesome. If not, then no hard feelings.

If you want to use the form simply inform the other party ahead of time.

[Guest theolog]

Nevermind. Best of luck to you, sir.

Edited June 11, 2008 by theolog