Has anyone experienced a refusal to use the TGO face-to-face form?

[mousegunner]

On my last purchase, I gave the fellow a scan of my TN ccw permit, and he was happy. I just wanted his name and phone number, which I already had from the classifed ad in the paper. The fewer forms the better, as far as I'm concerned. But I wouldn't back out of getting a gun I wanted, if someone wanted the TGO form. Giving it to a private guy is different than giving it to an FFL, in my opinion.

[Guest nraforlife]

I didn't know you worked for Rabbi.

LOL..

You know a lot of people don't want the paper trail NOT for criminal reasons but solely because they don't want any government entity to know what they have.

[Guest gcrookston]

Though I might not require a bill of sale, I do want the identification information of the individual I've sold to/purchased from. I will also ask them bluntly if they are a convicted felon or if any reason exists that might preclude them from purchasing a gun from me.

If they aren't willing to give me this info, I have no problem walking away. Has nothing to do with the government. It is strictly cya.

In the hundreds of transactions I've had over the years I've only had the Law come knocking once, looking to know who I'd sold a gun to. In this instance I had purchased a gun new from a dealer, didn't like it and traded it to another dealer at a gun show. That dealer, turns out, didn't bother logging it through his books and it ended up being recovered at a crime scene months later. They didn't ask me about anything beyond that particular weapon and it was painless (not to mention a bit relieving), to give them a copy of my trade receipt.

If the government comes looking for my file box and old FFL Ledger, I'm sure I'll have other more pressing concerns....

[nightrunner]

no need for any paperwork of anykind in a FTF transaction. the closest ive had to it was the guy wanted my name, address, PH# and DL#. either he knew the laws that i didnt or he didnt care cuz that was for a handgun when i was 19.( i know legal, but i thought it was 21).

no law says you have to get a receipt, so i dont want one

[Guest theolog]

If you want a bill of sale I'd go for that, but I'm not giving my info to you.

So you'd refuse your name, address and phone number? That's insane. Plus it would make a deal difficult if I had to call you "Mr. X" the whole time and wait on your phone calls, because I wouldn't have your number and I'm sure you'd block it before calling me with the old *67.

It's not a bill of sale if it doesn't have at least that basic information on it.

[dariks]

The FTF form would make me think twice about buying a gun from an individual, but I have no problem w/a sales receipt. I dislike giving out my personal information especially when it is not required by law. I also like the idea of having guns that are off the radar.

[Smith]

I wouldn't and I don't. I don't give or get receipts from yard sales. The form is over the top. What is the purpose? Are yo buying or selling something that needs more regulation than anything else? If you say yes, then you are buying into the anti's reactionary "guns are dangerous". Would you make someone fill out some form for a circular saw? It could just as easily be stolen as anything else.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Smith

[Guest theolog]

I wouldn't and I don't. I don't give or get receipts from yard sales.

Maybe you should consider it. You never know when someone might use that toaster to wack someone else in the head, and then the ATF might be knocking on your door! (that's the Federal Bureau of Appliances, Toasters and Fixtures).

[Smith]

Maybe you should consider it. You never know when someone might use that toaster to wack someone else in the head, and then the ATF might be knocking on your door! (that's the Federal Bureau of Appliances, Toasters and Fixtures).

They'd have to have a lot more than just a gun linked to me to justify some charge like that. No investigator is going to charge someone or even detain some one for simple ownership of a gun.

[memphismason]

I wouldn't and I don't. I don't give or get receipts from yard sales.

I agree.

I have no problem for the person to know my name, and phone number. that is basic to the sale, (meeting up and what not).

If he wants to give me a receipt, that is fine too. I will accept, and then when I get home it will wind up where all of my other receipts go, the trash.

Part of a FTF deal is the "off-paper" idea. I have bought from Gun Shops, and Pawn Shops and I will continue, and there Gun sales are regulated. But in a FTF transaction, you can not use your credit card, you don't pay sales tax, and no paperwork is required.

I have a receipt book with me, and if I sell a firearm I will keep a record that I sold it, and in the signature line,.....who knows what name will appear. But that is my "if the ATF come a knocking plan"....I don't want your personel info, and I would not give anyone mine.

[TGO David]

I would back out too. It is an idiotic form. It doesn't protect anyone from anything.

There is no legal requirement to have a bill of sale or receipt. If that is what you want then get/give one. I don't give one or fill one out and never have. I do not care for any paper trail. If you are worried you should probably just meet the other guy at an FFL and have them run do the transfer for you.

The "big deal" is the paper trail, any paper trail. Many people do not want the government or anyone else to know they have a certain firearm in case the gun grabbers come.

Everyone should read this reply and take heed...

There is actually, ongoing at this moment, a situation involving a person that I am aware of who purchased a firearm from someone else in a face-to-face deal and did not receive a bill of sale. This transaction involves two people who came together as buyer and seller after a for-sale post on an Internet forum!

The buyer ended up having to use the firearm in a self defense situation. When the police did the normal investigation that follows one of these events, they found that the firearm in question had been stolen.

The seller denied ever having sold the firearm to the buyer. There was no bill of sale to back up the seller's claim, so the buyer could end up facing some serious jail time as the result of owning a stolen firearm. The assumption being that without evidence to prove otherwise, there is now reasonable suspicion that the buyer stole the firearm himself.

So what would have been an otherwise justified use of force in self-defense has now turned into a legal nightmare for an innocent party.

If that's the kind of thing you want to set yourself up for, then by all means you should do private, off the record transactions with people who refuse to sign the form that we've provided or refuse to provide you with a bill of sale. People like Kiwkrnu or The Rabbi who like things "off the radar".

[TGO David]

The FTF form would make me think twice about buying a gun from an individual, but I have no problem w/a sales receipt. I dislike giving out my personal information especially when it is not required by law. I also like the idea of having guns that are off the radar.

People who refuse to use a FTF form or bill of sale make me think twice about selling to them. And there is no such thing as a gun that is "off the radar" unless it is one you built yourself. All guns have an owner and a history attached to them at some point, on some document, somewhere.

[nightrunner]

since i like that lack of paperwork, i likely wouldnt have a FTF transaction with paperwork. however saying that, IF i did buy a gun FTF that had the possibility of being used in a self-defense situation, CCW, home defense gun etc. i would probably get the police to run a check on it to make sure it is clean

[Guest jfountain2]

Everyone should read this reply and take heed...

There is actually, ongoing at this moment, a situation involving a person that I am aware of who purchased a firearm from someone else in a face-to-face deal and did not receive a bill of sale. This transaction involves two people who came together as buyer and seller after a for-sale post on an Internet forum!

The buyer ended up having to use the firearm in a self defense situation. When the police did the normal investigation that follows one of these events, they found that the firearm in question had been stolen.

The seller denied ever having sold the firearm to the buyer. There was no bill of sale to back up the seller's claim, so the buyer could end up facing some serious jail time as the result of owning a stolen firearm. The assumption being that without evidence to prove otherwise, there is now reasonable suspicion that the buyer stole the firearm himself.

So what would have been an otherwise justified use of force in self-defense has now turned into a legal nightmare for an innocent party.

If that's the kind of thing you want to set yourself up for, then by all means you should do private, off the record transactions with people who refuse to sign the form that we've provided or refuse to provide you with a bill of sale. People like Kiwkrnu or The Rabbi who like things "off the radar".

Ok, you changed my view on the subject.

[Guest Fuel]

I've seen this same discussion over and over again on multiple gun forums. Same arguments of "off the radar" and "not required by law". I truly have a hard time grasping some off the thought processes behind those statements.

Personally, I like the idea of a receipt showing who I sold a gun to. I know it's been argued to the contrary, but you can't convince me that if a gun I sold was used in a crime that a receipt with some basic information wouldn't go a long way towards getting the police off my back. Just seems like common sense to me.

[Guest dotsun]

If you mean would I fill out this: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1&d=1169137565

Nope.

I would be happy to sign a bill of sale. There is info on that form that strangers do not need in order to prove I bought a gun from them. And why all the questions? I could lie on that form and commit no crime that I'm aware of, unlike the real one that's a felony to lie on.

[Smith]

Everyone should read this reply and take heed...

There is actually, ongoing at this moment, a situation involving a person that I am aware of who purchased a firearm from someone else in a face-to-face deal and did not receive a bill of sale. This transaction involves two people who came together as buyer and seller after a for-sale post on an Internet forum!

The buyer ended up having to use the firearm in a self defense situation. When the police did the normal investigation that follows one of these events, they found that the firearm in question had been stolen.

The seller denied ever having sold the firearm to the buyer. There was no bill of sale to back up the seller's claim, so the buyer could end up facing some serious jail time as the result of owning a stolen firearm. The assumption being that without evidence to prove otherwise, there is now reasonable suspicion that the buyer stole the firearm himself.

So what would have been an otherwise justified use of force in self-defense has now turned into a legal nightmare for an innocent party.

If that's the kind of thing you want to set yourself up for, then by all means you should do private, off the record transactions with people who refuse to sign the form that we've provided or refuse to provide you with a bill of sale. People like Kiwkrnu or The Rabbi who like things "off the radar".

There are just as many examples to go the other way. Again buying and selling guns is no more extreme to warrant some "legal" form than my golf clubs in the garage sale. If you're in shooting scenario, every detail will be hashed out good and bad. It's nonsense. Receipts, especially for cash, are fine but some form with all my info - No dice.

[TGO David]

If you mean would I fill out this: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1&d=1169137565

Nope.

I would be happy to sign a bill of sale. There is info on that form that strangers do not need in order to prove I bought a gun from them. And why all the questions? I could lie on that form and commit no crime that I'm aware of, unlike the real one that's a felony to lie on.

It's called "plausible deniability" and I like to have it when I transfer a firearm to a buyer. I want them to be able to prove who sold it to them [me] and I want to be able to prove who I sold it to [them].

You can also lie on BATFE form #4473 about those things. You will probably get caught by the TBI instant check, but you might luck out.

The bottom line for me is that if you refuse to complete and sign that form, I'm going to refuse to sell the weapon to you.

[Guest Papabear]

I had to go look at the form to see what everyone was talking about. To me I would not really want to give a stranger my home address but the rest of it I don't have a huge problem with. I do not sell much I am more of a pack rat when it come to firearms. But I normally just get a simple receipt. Your name, My name, Make, Model and serial number. It the same info I would need to sell a car. To me I don't care about on books or off book deals. Unless you have never bought a gun at a store your in the system somewhere as a gun owner.

[Guest dotsun]

It's called "plausible deniability" and I like to have it when I transfer a firearm to a buyer. I want them to be able to prove who sold it to them [me] and I want to be able to prove who I sold it to [them].

You can also lie on BATFE form #4473 about those things. You will probably get caught by the TBI instant check, but you might luck out.

The bottom line for me is that if you refuse to complete and sign that form, I'm going to refuse to sell the weapon to you.

That's certainly your right, just as it's mine to turn it down. I prefer not to give strangers personal info like birthdate and dl#, there's way too much identity theft as it is. Again I see no point to the questions. There are absolutely no repercussions to lying on them.

Edited to add: home addy is another good one not to give out papa.

[Guest Mugster]

Everyone should read this reply and take heed...

There is actually, ongoing at this moment, a situation involving a person that I am aware of who purchased a firearm from someone else in a face-to-face deal and did not receive a bill of sale. This transaction involves two people who came together as buyer and seller after a for-sale post on an Internet forum!

The buyer ended up having to use the firearm in a self defense situation. When the police did the normal investigation that follows one of these events, they found that the firearm in question had been stolen.

The seller denied ever having sold the firearm to the buyer. There was no bill of sale to back up the seller's claim, so the buyer could end up facing some serious jail time as the result of owning a stolen firearm. The assumption being that without evidence to prove otherwise, there is now reasonable suspicion that the buyer stole the firearm himself.

So what would have been an otherwise justified use of force in self-defense has now turned into a legal nightmare for an innocent party.

If that's the kind of thing you want to set yourself up for, then by all means you should do private, off the record transactions with people who refuse to sign the form that we've provided or refuse to provide you with a bill of sale. People like Kiwkrnu or The Rabbi who like things "off the radar".

Its pretty simple to have a firearm's serial number checked to see if it is stolen or not. You don't need a reciept.

[Mike.357]

I can't believe there is common ground between Voldemort and myself.

Filling out the Mickey 4473 is a deal breaker for me too.

As for the guy Tungsten brought up who is in a legal quagmire over a FTF purchase, do the police think he pulled the sellers name out of the phone book? Does thei nternet add no longer exist on a server?

I would let someone have my name. But DL #, address etc they cannot have.

As for selling, basically unless I have an idea who you are I am not selling to you anyway.

I don't like being involved with people I do not know in some manner.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Mike.357

[TGO David]

Its pretty simple to have a firearm's serial number checked to see if it is stolen or not. You don't need a reciept.

How would one go about this?

[Guest HunterH]

This thread has brings to mind a concern I have about selling a gun I have.

I have a .40S&W Witness that I have been thinking about selling, but it is the only handgun I own that I know for certian is without paperwork as I bought it from a family friend who did not use any paperwork. I have been holding on to it in case the unthinkable happens and Obama sends out the gun grabbers. I do not want to be completely disarmed. I suspect this is unfounded paranoia and I should sell/trade the witness (a match style gun) to get a defensive gun that I would rather have at this point.

Is there any logic to my hesitation to sell the Witness??

[memphismason]

That's certainly your right, just as it's mine to turn it down. I prefer not to give strangers personal info like birthdate and dl#, there's way too much identity theft as it is. Again I see no point to the questions. There are absolutely no repercussions to lying on them.

Edited to add: home addy is another good one not to give out papa.

That is right.

I will sign a bill of sale ie. receipt, and I would have no problem giving the seller my name and phone number (for that is needed to meet up anyways), but that is the extent of the info I am giving out.

I would refuse to fill out the form also, I might be denied the sell of the firearm, but that is the chance I will take for not giving out information that I see as personal.