Has anyone experienced a refusal to use the TGO face-to-face form?

[Guest theolog]

(My apologies if this is in the wrong section.)

I just had a fellow back out of a potential deal because of my requested use of the form. I've done a couple other transactions face-to-face and the first one didn't care a bit, while the second one was uncomfortable but went for it when he realized he was getting my information as well. This one said it was a deal breaker.

Just wondering!

Like the thread with the form says, "better to be safe."

[Guest kwikrnu]

Those forms are deal breakers for me.

[Guest theolog]

Would you mind explaining why? I'm not being critical at all, I'm truly curious what I'm missing.

[Guest kwikrnu]

It is principle for me. I don't think the government has any business knowing what guns I own. That being said, it probably wouldn't be hard figuring out who bought your gun. Telephone numbers, user names, license plates from the car they drove up in, etc.

[Guest utarch00]

That form is not to notify the government of what guns you own. It is to cover both parties butts, in case the gun being purchased or sold is stolen property &/or was used in a crime.

Have you never bought a gun from the store. The government can found out a lot easier buy doing that, then they can with a FTF with that form.

[strickj]

The Government has nothing to do with a face to face transaction using a detailed receipt(if you will)

Your probably better off not selling it to the guy.Theres no telling why he refused to submit to a receipt kinda thing!

[The Rabbi]

I would back out too. It is an idiotic form. It doesn't protect anyone from anything.

[Guest theolog]

Seriously?

I don't know about "protection" but it makes a difference if the ATF comes knocking on my door and wants to know why a gun with my name on the 4473 was used in a crime in Idaho.

Better than, "Hell if I know. I sold it. That's all I remember."

[Guest kwikrnu]

There is no legal requirement to have a bill of sale or receipt. If that is what you want then get/give one. I don't give one or fill one out and never have. I do not care for any paper trail. If you are worried you should probably just meet the other guy at an FFL and have them run do the transfer for you.

[Guest theolog]

I'm not asking for your advice or instruction on my transactions, just your viewpoint on your own. Thank you for providing it! My intent isn't to argue about it or for us to try to convert each other. I was just genuinely trying to understand other viewpoints - and I still don't see the big deal about a sales receipt.

[Guest kwikrnu]

The "big deal" is the paper trail, any paper trail. Many people do not want the government or anyone else to know they have a certain firearm in case the gun grabbers come.

[Guest theolog]

You must not believe me that I don't want to argue.

:tinfoil:

[Guest kwikrnu]

You must not believe me that I don't want to argue.

:tinfoil:

You asked and I gave reasons why one would not use the form. You stated you did not understand the big deal and I explained again. There is nothing to argue about.

[Guest theolog]

Ok, I'll bite.

What does the government have to do with a receipt for a FTF sale? It is meant for the benefit of both parties, and has nothing to do with registration, notification or repossession.

The only other person who will know what gun you have is the person who sold it to you, and obviously they already know.

You gave reasons - sort of - but they're thin and borderline paranoid.

Have you ever - or will you ever - buy from a dealer? If there is some kind of mass confiscation of firearms, and if things are that bad, they'll find one gun and tear your house apart looking for the rest of them.

Edited June 5, 2008 by theolog

[Guest kwikrnu]

Ok, I'll bite.

What does the government have to do with a receipt for a FTF sale?

The only other person who will know what gun you have is the person who sold it to you, and obviously they already know.

You gave reasons - sort of - but they're thin and borderline paranoid.

Have you ever - or will you ever - buy from a dealer? If there is some kind of mass confiscation of firearms, if things are that bad, they'll find one gun and tear your house apart looking for the rest of them.

If the BATF or cops or anyone in government comes looking for your gun what are you going to do? Probably show them the receipt/bill of sale. What is the government going to do with that receipt/bill of sale? Probably look up who you sold the gun to and pay him a visit.

I've bought from dealers. I just bought a rifle last week from a dealer.

The point is some people want to own some guns off the radar, for whatever the reason. You call that paranoid some people call it prudent.

In any case if you want want to make sure no one knows about the sale and who you are you need a truley anonymous sale. That includes no internet, telephones, or names, or cameras, fingerprints, maybe a disguise, and no cars.

For many people it is the principle of the matter.

Edited June 5, 2008 by kwikrnu

[Guest theolog]

Good enough. Thanks again for replying, I really do appreciate it.

The 4473 is about as on-the-RADAR as you can get!

[Guest kwikrnu]

If there is some kind of mass confiscation of firearms, and if things are that bad, they'll find one gun and tear your house apart looking for the rest of them.

I've read about people burying ammo I think on this forum. What is to stop them from burying a gun?

[Guest theolog]

Sandy soil or corrosion!

[strickj]

I just dont see the big deal! You get receipts each and every day for everything you buy!You have a paper and computer trail for everything.That 5 dollar sub,the screw driver,and that cold medicine.

The only reason anyone would not want to submit to a trail from that medicine is because there making something illegal with it.Even if there not,its still looked at that way!

So why not get one for something that could put you in some deep dodo!

I just dont see how anyone could think the government could get ahold of mass quantiles of receipts to find what you have bought

[Guest bkelm18]

I think its pretty stupid to refuse to fill one out. Its not about gov't, its not about big brother, its just a damn piece of paper with your info on it. Personally, I like having records of things I purchase or sell. Thats why if I sell a car, a bill of sale gets written up. I keep all receipts until it gets cleared from the bank. I say, if they refuse to fill it out, move on and don't sell to them. Some people's tin foil hats are on way too tight.

[R1100R]

I don't know about the form. But I want receipts. Even if I was buying.

[Guest dotsun]

Damn, I'm going to have to a, ag, agr, agree with kwik for once. (That was hard for me ) Dumb form not required and I'd back out as well. If you want a bill of sale I'd go for that, but I'm not giving my info to you.

[Guest nraforlife]

When/if the time comes, I've sold all my guns to some big black dude with a gold tooth down by the projects. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. As far as receipts go, the dog ate em.

[R1100R]

I can understand the way some of you feel. My best Friend a many years back took a gun to get repaired. While it was at the shop he was notified by police(came to his house) that the gun had been stolen. Without the bill of sale he would have been arrested. He had to go twice to the PD to fill out statements. He was told that a list is sent to gun/ pawn shops of stolen guns.

That these places are audited by the state. It was a gun/pawn/gunsmith shop in Dekalb County, GA. I just remember he had bought it FTF out of a newspaper ad. It had been stolen a few years before. The person he bought it from had purchased it out side at a gun show and he didn't know. I was a huge mess.

Edited June 5, 2008 by R1100R

[Guest dotsun]

When/if the time comes, I've sold all my guns to some big black dude with a gold tooth down by the projects. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. As far as receipts go, the dog ate em.

I didn't know you worked for Rabbi.