sw1911. accuracy issues.

[vujade]

I've got a sw1911 with some accuracy issues that I can use some advice/help:

Picked up used but looks new (case, papers, etc.) It's tight (very little side to side movement. I've tried a box of Federal 45 230 grainers and a broad mix of careful handloads (unique, blue dot). I can't break anything less than 5-6 inches at 25 yards. The average seemed to be 3 or 4 of the 5 shot groups 'on paper'. This is benched. I had a friend at the range who is known to be a good shot give it a try and while he couldn't find anything wrong with the gun, he too was surprised when it didn't shoot where he aimed. He couldn't best 5 inches at 25 yards either.

I've stripped her twice tonight looking for anything that can be wrong. The trigger breaks at a nice 4.75 pounds. The sights aren't loose. The barrel crown isn't damaged; clean (I ran some cotton around there and nothing snagged). The rifling is strong/no visual cues that something is wrong.

I'm not proud of my handgun skills but I took a p228 in 9mm as well. i easily grouped 1.5-2 inches at 13 yards using cheap russian ammo. I also shot my s&w 686 at 25 yards benched and got an easy 2.5 inches with cheap aguila ammo.

Do I send this back to S&W and who has experience with their customer service?

Or do I replace some stuff? Maybe a barrel bushing?

This is front of the gun:

The back:

This is probably the best group of the day:

[vujade]

I made some measurements:

The barrel is .578 wide.

Bushing's interior width: .612

Bushing's exterior width: .697

Slide opening where the bushing/barrel will fit: .704

Are those 'within spec for accuracy or does it need to be tighter?

[vujade]

Wilson combat's bushing has an ID of .584 (.006 difference with my barrel vs. .034 now). OD of .703 (.001 vs. .007 now).

My question is how tight does a bushing need to be to be accurate. Or would this amount of inaccuracy need to be something else other than just a bushing issue?

[Jonnin]

I use a rule of thumb ... if you can get the bushing out without a tool, its not tight enough.

double distance and double group size does not make me worry. If you do 2 inches at 13 then 4-5 at 25 is on par. Its not precisely linear, but its close enough that I would say ... try it at 13 or 15 or something, see if you get your 2 inch group.... the gun could be fine.

could be any of dozens of things. Ammo. Sights. Something loose. Shooter. Barrel crown (not all damage is easy to test). Lack of a point target to aim at precisely. Etc.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Jonnin

[alwaysonjohn]

are you used to a .45 caliber handgun? you may be compensating for the recoil by pulling down a little bit before you squeeze the trigger. it doesn't look too bad though for 25 yards though, that's a long shot.

[ProjectDexter]

I use a rule of thumb ... if you can get the bushing out without a tool, its not tight enough.

double distance and double group size does not make me worry. If you do 2 inches at 13 then 4-5 at 25 is on par. Its not precisely linear, but its close enough that I would say ... try it at 13 or 15 or something, see if you get your 2 inch group.... the gun could be fine.

could be any of dozens of things. Ammo. Sights. Something loose. Shooter. Barrel crown (not all damage is easy to test). Lack of a point target to aim at precisely. Etc.

Huh?

[Jonnin]

Huh?

I see you bolded the bushing part. What is hard to understand --- for a target 1911, if you can get it out by hand, its too loose. That however is not enough to account for this sized group, but he was asking about the bushing specifically.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Jonnin

[TGO David]

If you are concerned about the accuracy of the gun and have had others confirm it by firing it as well, call S&W and have them send a prepaid mailer to you to that you can return it to them for service. Their customer service department is second to none.

[Lumber_Jack]

Just for reference I can get the bushing out of my TRP without a tool, but I understand what Jonnin is saying, it should be tight.

You shot from a rest, with yourself and another proficient shooter, I agree with David, call S&W

[vujade]

Yep, the bushing is definitely loose but I was worried as Joonin said, it may not account solely for this sized groups.

I'll give S&W a call on Monday and have it sent it. I'll let you know how it goes; thanks guys.

Edited October 28, 2012 by vujade

[ProjectDexter]

I see you bolded the bushing part. What is hard to understand --- for a target 1911, if you can get it out by hand, its too loose. That however is not enough to account for this sized group, but he was asking about the bushing specifically.

Yea I've just never heard that before, and I've never had to use a wrench, it threw me off guard haha.

Edited October 28, 2012 by ProjectDexter

[ProjectDexter]

Just for reference I can get the bushing out of my TRP without a tool, but I understand what Jonnin is saying, it should be tight.

Yes. Nighthawk, Springfield, and Para, never used a tool. Maybe I have Hulk hands

Let us know what happens when you talk to Smith, be interesting to see what they say.

Edited October 28, 2012 by ProjectDexter

[Dolomite_supafly]

My 1911 has a hand fitted bushing. If I move the slide back about a 1/2" the bushing is a lot easier to remove but I still need a tool. If the slide is all the way forward the barrel is locked into the bushing and does not move at all.

With the slide forward can you move the barrel at the muzzle? If so that might be a little loose.

I always use and undersized/oversized bushing when replacing them. That way I can fit it as tight as possible.

Dolomite

[Moped]

I was issued a National Match .45 ACP, when I was shooting for the Army Reserve back in the 1990's and I could take the bushing off without a tool. I've never had a .45 that the bushing was so tight I needed a wrench. Accuracy of your .45 seems about right for a combat pistol, off hand though and you said this was shooting off a bench. If you aren't happy with it, send it to S&W and have them check it out.

[jdw174]

A good .45 pistolsmith can do wonders in making a 1911 shoot tighter groups. That would be my first choice.

[Lumber_Jack]

A good .45 pistolsmith can do wonders in making a 1911 shoot tighter groups. That would be my first choice.

This would be my SECOND choice. if I can get reasonable accuracy for free, I'm gonna get that. If it comes back the same, then I agree, that a gunsmith could probably tighten that thing up.

[vujade]

called S&W. I was surprised they didn't really ask a lot of questions. They said 'just send it in (no charge) and we'll look at it".

I just went online to fill out the form and now going to wait for the shipping label.

[Guest Nunya]

I had one of those years ago. At the time, it was the only gun I had and i had no reference for how well I should be shooting. Since then I have often wondered if I just SUCKED that bad, or if it was the gun.

[vujade]

I just called S&W. Gun arrived to them last week so it's been about a week with them. She said repairs take 3-4 weeks.

Oh my gosh, I can't stand the wait!!

[CQB Elite]

Glad to hear they are taking care of you. Did they give you any idea of what "repairs" they are doing? Edited November 11, 2012 by EB-SF

[vujade]

I got it back from S&W. I'm a little disappointed. Along with the gun, there some paperwork including a form letter that says, "The enclosed firearm was test fired and deteremined to meet factory specification. No repairs were necessary as the firearm is in proper working order".

There is a photocopy of the target which details that it was tested at 15 yards. By an M. Edwards with an arrow pointing to the P.O.A. There is a 1 hole ragged group right there on top of the POA! I'm estimating here but I'd say the group size is about 3 inches (so at 25 yards, that's should equate to about 5 inches). Here is the thing: The note said the group was "hand held".

I'd be happy if I can shoot 5 inches hand held but I shot this thing benched and could maybe get 5-6 inches?!

I'm going to give it another try at the range. I picked up some 200 grain SWC that I'll load up. I'll fire some more of the left over factory ammo as well. I did some reading and a common replacement part seems to be the bushing so I ordered one (EGW match bushing). I'll see if that makes a difference and I'll report back. Anything else that can go wrong with a 1911 that I can check/replace?

This doesn't take away from the sheer beauty of this 1911. It feels great too. I just hate that I can't get it to shoot.

[vujade]

I took it apart again to check measurements, check for any flaws, crown damage, damage to rifling... nothing, all perfect. The only thing that 'looks beat up' is the stock bushing itself:

[IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/2ymeo74.jpg[/IMG]


[img]http://i48.tinypic.com/xm4g2a.jpg[/img]

it looks like a robot dog used it as a chew toy; well, the new bushing is on the way. Edited November 15, 2012 by vujade

[vujade]

I measured the test group from S&W wrong (it was a picture of target paper/group and i had to scale it). His 15 yard group was actually 1.86 inches.... that translates to roughly 3.1 inches at 25 yards; handheld. That's pretty good shooting and tells me the gun is ok?

I spoke to a customer rep this morning. They use any of the following for groups/function testing:

230 grain Winchesters
185 grain Remington
230 grain Federal Hydroshocks

I'll loud up some 200 grains (i don't have any 185s) to see if that improves. I'm thinking 5.0, 5.5. and 6.0 grains of Unique under a lead 200 grain SWC from MBC. I'll let you know how it goes... Edited November 15, 2012 by vujade

[Jonnin]

sounds reasonable for a tester just shooting it with iron sights and holding it.

I was going to say that a 3 inch hole is a lot of rounds, and I doubt they empty a full box per pistol.

Dumb question, but was the revolver shooting single action/cocked when you did it?

[vujade]

As an update, I've been chatting with Dolomite and Caster (awesome awesome bunch of guys).

With their help,I ended up slugging the barrel last night. My bore measures to .452. If FMJs I'm shooting are .451, that would explain the accuracy issues. it's strange thought that the bore is clean with strong rifling; i don't think it's been shoot much considering the condition of the gun.

I've emailed S&W and asked what their 'in spec' bores should be. They replied: .442 to .443. I'm asking for a new barrel. I'll see what happens.