winchester black talon?

[reed1285]

what is so special about this ammunition that it cost this much?

http://www.gunbroker...?Item=313213317

Ive never heard of it before. I was just strolling around looking for some 9mm ammo and came across this. current bid is $1100. Kicker is buy it now was $1000. So somebody wasnt watching what they were doing I guess lol. Is this a limited edition ammo that winchester makes, or used to make? Thats alot of coin for 500 rounds of 9mm. Info?

*edit...oh i see now, its got 12 bids on it so they are in a bidding war for it i guess. still i guess somebody should of used the buy it now lol.

Edited October 27, 2012 by reed1285

[zgunbear]

It was top flifght defensive ammo in the late 80's early to mid 90's. They stopped [producing it beacuse the libs thought it was too dangerous and Winchetser caved to their demands. The ammo is a very efficent jacketed hollow point. when it expands in tissue the jacket has very sharo petals almost like talons.

Had some years ago. I don't think it is worth the price they are asking but for a collector with more money than sense maybe so.

It works out to 1.76 a round. If I remeber correctly it used to be about .75 to .80 cents a round.

Expensive but it will stop a zombie cold...

Edited October 27, 2012 by zgunbear

[gnmwilliams]

Black talons are the evil black rifles of the ammunition world. I've heard that the Ranger T's are very simlilar. They just don't have the black tips. And they're cheaper.

[runco]

I actually have several unopened boxes left over from my gun business days. I think winchester still makes the same exact ammo today, just rebadged and the bullets are colored differently, was black now gold or grey or something. I still have some Beretta o& glock magazines fully loaded with the stuff.

[Murgatroy]

It was labeled 'Cop Killer' ammunition back in the day. The black teflon or whatever coating convinced folks that it could go through bulletproof vests.

The libs hated it.

They still make it today, with different colored bullets. It was called Winchester Ranger SXT after the rename.

The joke is that it was the Same eXact Thing.

Now it seems it is just called Ranger T (Talon.)

I carry the 124gr +P+ variant in my Glock.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Murgatroy

[Guest TNBrat]

They still make it today, with different colored bullets. It was called Winchester Ranger SXT after the rename.

The joke is that it was the Same eXact Thing.

That's priceless!

Thanks for the info though. We we're looking into getting something similar for our carry guns.

TNBrat Hiding in the woods…

[Jamie Jackson]

Yep,

Murgatroy nailed it...and humorously as well.

When Winchester first introduced it, early 90's I believe, a lot of local (New Orleans area) LEO's carried it.

I had the opportunity to see several nare-do-wells shot with 9mm and 45 acp Black Talons.

The 9mm (or at least the 2-3 I saw) did not expand at all for the most part. The 45's worked great, fully expanded and didn't exit...and with good penetration.

But they are just collectables nowadays. There are much improved rounds available.

I still have a couple of boxes of 45's stuck back...but simply because I purchased them back then.

[ProjectDexter]

I know a guy that still produces the "all black" not sure how many people still do it.

http://crossfireammunition.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69&Itemid=57

[bvarnell]

That was about the same time that Glock introduced the 19. All the anti-gun idiots and media sheeple were saying because the Glock was plastic, it would be impossible to detect on x-ray or magnetometers (? sp.).

The world might come to an end because terrorist would be carrying them undetected with Black Talon cop killer bullets.

Looks like the evil plastic Glock survived.

Not so for the Black Talon.

[GlockSpock]

My understanding is also that the Ranger T series is practically the SAME EXACT THING. Minus the black coating of course. I've actually been reading a lot about the RA9T and the RA9TA. Ranger ammo sometimes sales pretty high because Winchester doesn't market it to "civilians", and most places won't sell it to non LEO. SGAMMO.COM is one place that sells them to civilians, and even though they are costly, they are nowhere near what that auction went for. Sometimes I wonder if things like this aren't a "fixed" auction to make people think that 500 rounds of Black Talon ammo is worth over 1k, and then actually sell it to someone that falls for it. Online bidding makes it easy to have a buddy with an account bid an outrageous price for personal gain.

Edited November 2, 2012 by CZ9MM

[Chucktshoes]

The black coating is Lubalox, which Winchester still uses on their SXZ line of ammo for Bass Pro.

I actually still carry some Black Talons in my M&P along with some Ranger Ts.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Chucktshoes

[kwe45919]

[quote name='Chucktshoes' timestamp='1351830356' post='837606']
The black coating is Lubalox, which Winchester still uses on their SXZ line of ammo for Bass Pro.

I actually still carry some Black Talons in my M&P along with some Ranger Ts.
[/quote]

That is correct. It is a Lubalox coating. More or less an Oxide process that gives it the "gray/black" look. I still have a box of the 147gr 9mm. Had it for 7 or so years. Yes the Rangers are the same thing and work the same way. Nothing special about them other than the nastalgia of what people use to think they were. I wouldn't pay over $250 for the 500 rounds....who ever pays 1K for them is purely crazy.

[Jonnin]

I have some really, really old ammo that says luballoy or something like that.

[Rock.45]

My understanding that Winchester's PDX1 Bonded is the Black Talon for the Civilian Market

[GKar]

At $31.95/box of 50 from SG, the price point for the current Ranger T-series RA45T is pretty much in line with several other offerings. I've used them in a Springer Micro Compact with no problems, while other HPs gave a few feed issues with that short, steep ramp. 9mm (RA9T, 147 gr) looks to be going for $27.95/50 ($269.50/500), which is in line with that for Hydra-Shok, Golden Sabre, Critical Duty, and a bit less than Critical Defense.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Another rare round from the 80's was teh BAT round. It was a solid copper alloy with a plastic tip to help feeding. Funny thin was it has a hole from the back to the front of the bullet. This was so the platic tip would be shot off the end of the bullet as it was fired. It was also labeled a "cop killer" bullet back in the 80's.

Here are plenty of examples of pictures of the BAT round:
[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&cp=19&gs_id=2&xhr=t&q=blitz+action+trauma&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=38093640&biw=1600&bih=783&wrapid=tljp135276574554600&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=IoOhUIOBN_S80QHSmoD4DQ"]http://www.google.co...BN_S80QHSmoD4DQ[/url]


ETA: Here is an auction, with packaging pictures of the BAT round:
[url="http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8543211"]http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8543211[/url]

Dolomite Edited November 12, 2012 by Dolomite_supafly

[Dolomite_supafly]

Here are some odd pistol cartridges from previous years:
[img]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/typelistonline.jpg[/img]

Not my picture.
From this website and posted by corwin, all credit goes to him:
[url="http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=32964964"]http://forums.anandt....php?p=32964964[/url]

Dolomite

[Caster]

Bottom left, I've always been intrigued by the 224 Boz

[CQB Elite]

I have a couple of boxes of the Black Talon in .40 S&W and about 20 boxes of the Ranger T in the same caliber. Been looking for Ranger T's in .45 ACP.

[Guest cruisemissile]

I also have a box of the original black talons and was told by a LEO that they are illegal to carry. He is a retired police chief from Knoxville TN.

[jdw174]

[quote name='Rock.45' timestamp='1352753178' post='844411']
My understanding that Winchester's PDX1 Bonded is the Black Talon for the Civilian Market
[/quote]

I'm fairly certain that the Ranger T is the current "Black Talon". From the tests I've seen, there are several rounds out there that peel back into "petals" a la the Talon. The difference being that they now fold under rather than staying spread out like claws as the BT's used to do.

For a little better perspective on the BT ammo, here's a question on another forum that is answered by Massad Ayoob.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1418338&highlight=black+talon Edited November 13, 2012 by jdw174

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='cruisemissile' timestamp='1352786869' post='844709']
I also have a box of the original black talons and was told by a LEO that they are illegal to carry. He is a retired police chief from Knoxville TN.
[/quote]

And he is clueless.

Dolomite

[musicman]

Sounds like the retired Sheriff in Williamson county teaching his HCP students that there is firearms registration in TN, and you can only carry the gun you used to qualify for your permit.

[JAB]

[quote name='Rock.45' timestamp='1352753178' post='844411']
My understanding that Winchester's PDX1 Bonded is the Black Talon for the Civilian Market
[/quote]

Mine, too - or rather that PDX1 is the 'civilian' packaging of the latest of the LEO 'Ranger' line which is, in turn, the latest generation (as in improved) of ammo descended from 'Black Talons'. It is also my understanding that - in it's LEO form (which basically means it comes 50 rounds to a box rather than just 20) it is the ammo the FBI has selected as their issued ammo.

I can get PDX1 for just over twenty bucks a box at the local Walmart. In fact, that is what I carry in my 642 (in .38 Special) and my Ruger P95 (in 9mm +P.) Unless one is a collector, I really can't see why anyone would pay that kind of cash for older tech Black Talons when a newer tech, improved version is readily available at a better price.

Because Winchester 'voluntarily' pulled Black Talons from the market (before a court had a chance to order them to do so) there is no legal reason that Winchester can't sell essentially the same ammo - or ammo derived from it. The black coating was said to really only be intended to reduce leading. My understanding is that it wasn't teflon or anything like that. However, some folks got the idea that it was teflon and was intended to somehow help the rounds penetrate body armor. Hence the ridiculous idea that they were 'cop killer' rounds. Unless I am mistaken, there was also some concern from surgeons, etc. that the sharp points (talons) could make the bullets dangerous to medical personnel who were attempting to remove them from wounds.

I don't always trust Wikipedia but having read through this article I think it is a pretty good one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon Edited November 13, 2012 by JAB

[HvBikeWlTravel]

[b]I wish I could get some more Albert's Hydra-Shoks. Very good HOME defense projectile for .38/357 and .44. Light velocity, low recoil, low report, great expansion, minimum penetration. [/b]