Mom leaves HCP class, takes gun to school

[DaveS]

I'm sure somebody has beat me to it... but yes 39-17-1309 requires that the grounds be posted...

First, the law as written is BAD... We don't need it, otherwise law abiding adults should be able to carry everywhere with very few exceptions.

Second, the firearm wasn't even loaded, and therefore doesn't meet the standard of intent to go armed.

Third, the officer should have used some common sense and let her go with a warning... he should be looking for a new job today because his obvious lack of common sense.

So yeah I blame the officer for not using better common sense... the legislature for passing and refusing the repeal a law that only causes there to be great risk to children.

This woman clearly wasn't a threat... she wasn't there to commit a crime... It's very unlikely that she would have knowingly violated the law... Yet somehow it's her fault...

Dave you're a perfect example of somebody who tries to be knowledgeable about TN gun laws, and how often do you get it wrong? I can't count the number of times people have had to post a statue on here for you... Yet you're active in this community... a 'gun' guy... you can't get it right how do you expect some woman who isn't a 'gun' person to know all the firearm laws?

Here you have a mother to appears to be concerned that says the building wasn't posted and didn't know not to carry in a school... I don't think we have any reason to not believe her when she says that...

So yeah well meaning otherwise law abiding citizens carry unload guns around all the time, and it doesn't surprise me, I personally don't see any criminal behavior here... I do see a bad law that we should all be working to remove... because the only people who suffer under this law are otherwise law abiding citizens.

JayC my whole point is WE ALL KNOW THE LAW! If the school is not posted, does that give me the right TO CARRY A GUN ONTO SCHOOL PROPERTY? You my friend whom considers themselves an expert on TN Law has not even been able to tell me or anyone else on here what a proper POSTING really is.

Shall I post the TN CODE for you to read and then you can point it out to me again what the code says my sign HAS to READ or what SIZE it has to be? This is not a personal attack on you my friend, but you seem to want to knock me around about people explaining the code to me. I KNOW WHAT IT SAYS!

Does the signs at the schools say "No Guns" or "No Loaded Guns"?

She messed up, she's got to pay! Same thing if I mess up.

Dave S

[bubbiesdad]

I'm sure somebody has beat me to it... but yes 39-17-1309 requires that the grounds be posted...

First, the law as written is BAD... We don't need it, otherwise law abiding adults should be able to carry everywhere with very few exceptions.

Second, the firearm wasn't even loaded, and therefore doesn't meet the standard of intent to go armed.

Third, the officer should have used some common sense and let her go with a warning... he should be looking for a new job today because his obvious lack of common sense.

So yeah I blame the officer for not using better common sense... the legislature for passing and refusing the repeal a law that only causes there to be great risk to children.

This woman clearly wasn't a threat... she wasn't there to commit a crime... It's very unlikely that she would have knowingly violated the law... Yet somehow it's her fault...

Dave you're a perfect example of somebody who tries to be knowledgeable about TN gun laws, and how often do you get it wrong? I can't count the number of times people have had to post a statue on here for you... Yet you're active in this community... a 'gun' guy... you can't get it right how do you expect some woman who isn't a 'gun' person to know all the firearm laws?

Here you have a mother to appears to be concerned that says the building wasn't posted and didn't know not to carry in a school... I don't think we have any reason to not believe her when she says that...

So yeah well meaning otherwise law abiding citizens carry unload guns around all the time, and it doesn't surprise me, I personally don't see any criminal behavior here... I do see a bad law that we should all be working to remove... because the only people who suffer under this law are otherwise law abiding citizens.

So she didn't know she couldn't carry without a permit? The instructor where she took the class needs a revocation of teaching credentials.

[Guest zort]

bottom line was she had no right to carry first off. second even if she did, everyone here knows not to carry at a school, and third she just got out of class the day before. stuipid people like this is what gets other people killed, like the kids that get shot with their parents loaded gun.

[TMF]

Did someone at the school get shot? Was she carrying one of those guns that goes on a shooting spree all on its own? She broke a law that is silly in the first place. So what?

[mikegideon]

Did someone at the school get shot? Was she carrying one of those guns that goes on a shooting spree all on its own? She broke a law that is silly in the first place. So what?

Pretty hard to shoot up the place with an unloaded gun. Let's not let any kind of common sense get in the way of our paranoia (aka zero tolerance idiocy).

Edited October 28, 2012 by mikegideon

[DaveS]

I'm sure somebody has beat me to it... but yes 39-17-1309 requires that the grounds be posted...

Third, the officer should have used some common sense and let her go with a warning... he should be looking for a new job today because his obvious lack of common sense.

So yeah I blame the officer for not using better common sense...

This woman clearly wasn't a threat... she wasn't there to commit a crime... It's very unlikely that she would have knowingly violated the law...

I don't think firing an LEO for doing his or her job of disarming a person carrying a gun into a school or onto school property would sit very well. And if they didn't disarm a perpatrator...we'd acuse them of not using common sense. So I must question who really is lacking in common sense here?

Carrying a gun onto or into schools or school property is a CRIME in this state. I know because "Oh Shoot" posted the laws for me to read. And that LAW does not state whether the GUN has to be loaded or UNLOADED to be not allowed.

Dave S

[TMF]

Pretty hard to shoot up the place with an unloaded gun. Let's not let any kind of common sense get in the way of our paranoia (aka zero tolerance idiocy).

The same guns that go on shooting sprees by themselves are the same ones that can load themselves too.... try to keep up Mike, geez.

[mikegideon]

The same guns that go on shooting sprees by themselves are the same ones that can load themselves too.... try to keep up Mike, geez.

I forgot

[JayC]

So she didn't know she couldn't carry without a permit? The instructor where she took the class needs a revocation of teaching credentials.

Don't need a permit to carry an unloaded firearm... If she had been pretty much anywhere else in the state other than a school, she would have perfectly legal to carry an unloaded firearm.

I suspect, and this is purely a guess on my part, she wasn't carrying an unloaded pistol for protection, but rather still had it on her from the night before.

[JayC]

I don't think firing an LEO for doing his or her job of disarming a person carrying a gun into a school or onto school property would sit very well. And if they didn't disarm a perpatrator...we'd acuse them of not using common sense. So I must question who really is lacking in common sense here?

Carrying a gun onto or into schools or school property is a CRIME in this state. I know because "Oh Shoot" posted the laws for me to read. And that LAW does not state whether the GUN has to be loaded or UNLOADED to be not allowed.

Dave S

There was nobody to disarm... the weapon was unloaded, and therefore was disarmed without any help from the police officer in question... Nobody here is saying that the police officer was wrong to respond, or to even have a chat with her about how she was mistaken... but it doesn't serve the public good to arrest her... and by not having the common sense to see that IMHO this officer shouldn't be on the job anymore. And if the officer had not arrested a real 'perpetrator' carrying an unloaded firearm the result would be the same, nobody gets killed by an unloaded gun unless it's used as a club.

Dave, you're kinda right... the news says she was charged with the intent to go armed, how do you carry an unloaded firearm with the intent to go armed?

There is another lesser charge for carrying any firearm onto school property... which you'll note I mentioned that part of the problem here was the BAD law written by our own legislature and not repealed by them.... Just so there is no confusion on the subject, both parts of the law are bad, the intent to go armed, and the just carrying a firearm.

This just shows we need to repeal this section of the law... It's already against the law to carry a loaded firearm around... it's against the law for minors to carry a loaded firearm or unloaded except for a very limited set exceptions... why do otherwise law abiding adults need to be hassled and left defenseless just because they go to pick up their children at school?

[DaveTN]

A person carries a gun into a school and the answer here is to fire the cop that arrested her and pull the license of the firearms instructor (I assume because she is too stupid to comprehend what he said???)

We live in a state where carrying guns is illegal. Fire your state legislators.

[BigK]

I believe that LEO's, prosecutors, and judges should put most of their emphasis on "intent" instead of technicalities.

By the letter of the law, she had a gun AND ammo in her purse without a permit to carry. By the letter of the law, she carried a weapon on school property. Ignorance of the law not being an excuse, she is technically a criminal.

As someone who wants an HCP, I wish she'd taken more time to learn about the laws before, during, and after her class. However, she did NOT intend to break the law, so I hope she is not prosecuted.

[Oh Shoot]

Don't need a permit to carry an unloaded firearm... I

A concealed unloaded handgun is not a defense to unlawful carry under 39-13-1308. Then again, maybe it wasn't concealed. Obviously, not concealed well enough anyway. Metal detector? Who knows.

But if this is true from the story:

"The gun wasn't loaded, but officers did find four rounds in her purse", and both the purse containing the ammo and the gun were on her person, the second part of the 39-13-1308 defense is also negated.

The defense is "...an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon"

I agree though, that dumb asses with no criminal intent should not necessarily be convicted if they did no harm, the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" principle notwithstanding -- that would be in keeping with the spirit of justice as opposed to letter of the law.

- OS

Edited October 28, 2012 by OhShoot

[JayC]

So she didn't know she couldn't carry without a permit? The instructor where she took the class needs a revocation of teaching credentials.

Again, it was an unloaded pistol... You don't need a carry permit to carry an unloaded pistol.

Nearly 1 in 10 adults without a criminal record have a carry permit in this state... I'm willing to bet a surprising number of them have no idea you can't carry in schools.

More importantly it is a BAD law... It doesn't protect anybody... And only hassles otherwise law abiding citizens...

Exactly how is arresting this mother serving the public good or reducing crime?

[JayC]

The news report I read the purse with 4 rounds of ammo was found in her vehicle not on her person.

I don't see how an officer makes an intent to go armed with an unloaded handgun and 4 rounds of ammo locked away in a vehicle 100 or more feet away.

It appears she wasn't charged under 39-17-1307... If she had that would be even more concerning...

A concealed unloaded handgun is not a defense to unlawful carry under 39-13-1308. Then again, maybe it wasn't concealed. Obviously, not concealed well enough anyway. Metal detector? Who knows.

But if this is true from the story:

"The gun wasn't loaded, but officers did find four rounds in her purse", and both the purse containing the ammo and the gun were on her person, the second part of the 39-13-1308 defense is also negated.

The defense is "...an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon"

I agree though, that dumb asses with no criminal intent should not necessarily be convicted if they did no harm, the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" principle notwithstanding -- that would be in keeping with the spirit of justice as opposed to letter of the law.

- OS

[bubbiesdad]

The news report I read the purse with 4 rounds of ammo was found in her vehicle not on her person.

I don't see how an officer makes an intent to go armed with an unloaded handgun and 4 rounds of ammo locked away in a vehicle 100 or more feet away.

It appears she wasn't charged under 39-17-1307... If she had that would be even more concerning...

Link? The one with OP says it was in her purse. Which means she was armed.

Edited October 29, 2012 by bubbiesdad

[Oh Shoot]

....It appears she wasn't charged under 39-17-1307... If she had that would be even more concerning...

What exactly WAS she charged with?

There are two instances under the school carry statute.

- Illegal to carry going armed. Which if she had ammo in purse on her person, it would technically be. Class E Felony

- It's also illegal to carry an UNloaded gun on school property, openly or concealed. Class B Misdemeanor.

She could of course also be charged with unlawful carry in addition to the school carry charge. Class A Misdemeanor in public.

- OS

Edited October 29, 2012 by OhShoot

[DaveS]

I applaud the Officer for carrying out his sworn duties that the citizens pay him to do. If we can get our Judges to do their part, we can make some examples for all of us to follow as "examples" and "case histories", for carrying past signs and in restricted areas.

This would resolve the issue of not having "case law" for all of us to referance.

Dave S

Edited October 29, 2012 by DaveS

[Jonnin]

I understand how this stuff happens ... right up to the point they get arrested. The police do not go around looking in everyone's cars, you have to DO something to attract them and then, assuming you are not a total moron with the gun sitting out in the open, you have to DO something even worse or abnormal to get your car searched. I could probably drag my gun anywhere except the airport and maybe the courthouse and no one would ever know.... no one down here uses metal detectors, no one down here does a real, serious weapons check, I would have to get it out and wave it around or epic fail concealment to get in trouble. I know people are dumb, but even dumb people should not be dumb enough to aggravate the police enough to get a thorough car seach!

[JayC]

Ok, lets see if we can get all these questions answered since reading the news reports is too hard from some From the second news story linked on the first page of this thread:

http://www.wsmv.com/story/19929662/cookeville-mom-accused-of-having-gun-on-school-property

“She stated that she did not have any ammunition, but four rounds were found in her purse inside her vehicle,†the officer’s report says.

“It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed any firearm or weapon†on school property.

While we don't have a copy of the officers report, I tend to think she was charged with the class E felony from reading this article.

[mikegideon]

It's just funny to me that we can throw somebody into prison when they had NO criminal intent, or even the means to carry out a criminal act. That is beyond stupid.

[JayC]

It's just funny to me that we can throw somebody into prison when they had NO criminal intent, or even the means to carry out a criminal act. That is beyond stupid.

It's not funny And another reason to call and bug the crap out of your state legislators... We need to repeal more of these silly gun laws that do nothing to protect us, and do a lot to harm otherwise law abiding citizens.

[blacklxcoupe]

http://www.herald-citizen.com/view/full_story/20624176/article-Mom-arrested-for-taking-gun-into-school?instance=most_recommended

Here is the link to the story from the Cookeville paper. It goes into a little more detail than the other story that was posted.

[mikegideon]

That explains a lot. $1000 bond means they're not exactly giving her the Charles Manson treatment. I figure she'll get a spankin' for being an idiot, which is appropriate.

[Jonnin]

I am just going to say it.

If they let that idiot who shot at the guy that stole his truck, which is attempted murder, discharge in city limits, and a dozen other violations, go pretty much with a warning, this lady should be fined $100 and made to pick up trash for a week AT THE MOST.