AR Pistol and Rifle

[Oh Shoot]

Still toying with making an extra lower into AR pistol. It was listed as just "receiver" on 4473. Couple questions:

1. So, I make an AR pistol. Thinking of something like RRA A4 7" or 10.5" upper. Let's say I use standard length buffer tube maybe cover it with foam sleeve. I understand I can't put a stock on end of the tube.

Question: Can I swap back and forth with a complete rifle upper plus stock? Or technically does the "once a rifle" thang come into play here?

2. Or, I do the SBR stamp. Now I can have the pistol upper on there with a stock.

Question: I assume I could still run it without the stock, but could I also change the buffer back and forth to one of the short pistol ones like BSE GSE makes?

- OS

Edited October 26, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Don't do the swapping thing with the rifle upper, Mac. The regular buffer tube is okay when made to not accept a

stock. I think taping or the foam sleeve would be okay. Once a buttstock is on, it becomes a rifle.

SBR'ing would allow the stock and any length upper on it, along with the stock, but I, personally, wouldn't waste the time.

I'm sure others would disagree, but if there ever was any kind of arms round up, it would be those on the NFA list first,

wouldn't you? I like the shorty buffer tube. Where'd you find that?

Edited October 26, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Oh Shoot]

....The regular buffer tube is okay when made to not accept a

stock.

Ah, that's the rule? It's can't be the standard tube that takes sliding butt stock?

Well, then you can't go back and forth rifle/pistol with the lower by changing out tube and upper?

I like the shorty buffer tube. Where'd you find that?

Opps, from GSE (Gun Smoke Enterprises) not "BSE", which is mentioned a lot in AR pistol discussions, seems to work fine from what I read.

http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/

- OS

Edited October 26, 2012 by OhShoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

Once a rifle, always a rifle. There are very few exceptions to this rule, like the Contenders.

I would use a standard pistol buffer tube then swap the uppers as you see fit. But once you add a stock to the lower then it becomes a rifle and cannot be turned back into a pistol. If you use one of those foam covered tubes they are pretty comfortable and shooting 223 is fine.

You can also add a angled fore grip, not vertical, to help manage the pistol.

Dolomite

[Lumber_Jack]

One note, I believe you cannot have a spare stock either. In other words you have 2 complete rifles, on pistol, and an extra stock in the closet, this is (I believe) a no-no. Similar to having a short upper and a spare "rifle" lower, also a no no.

[Oh Shoot]

Once a rifle, always a rifle. There are very few exceptions to this rule, like the Contenders....

They've widened that whole area, now, in an opinion that stems from the Thompson decision. The Beretta NEOS rifle/pistol as I understand it was an impetus for their further ruling.

Part of their ruling from:

http://www.atf.gov/r...ling-2011-4.pdf

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon†as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle†subject to the NFA has been made.

It seems to me, that just as with the Beretta NEOS, as long as the short barrel and rifle stock are not assembled at the same time, seems you can go back and forth.

And Lumberjack, even the "constructive possession" of parts seems to have been changed under this ruling. Only a no no when say, the butt stock and the short barrel fall under "when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity" to make an NFA item.

So under this interpretation, what is the difference between this:

and this:

As long as the buttstock and the short barrel are not assembled at the same time? Or to strictest letter of law, as long as the short barrel and the butstock are not in "close proximity" to each other at the same time?

- OS

Edited October 26, 2012 by OhShoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

Probably the difference is they issued a ruling in regards to the Neos, and only the Neos, like they have done for the Contender.

Write a letter to the ATF, I do it all the time, to be sure. It takes a few months to get an answer but once you do you know with 100% certainty what is legal and what is not.

They will not kick your door in and shoot your dog, if you have one.

Dolomite

[Oh Shoot]

Probably the difference is they issued a ruling in regards to the Neos, and only the Neos, like they have done for the Contender.

No, they didn't do a specific ruling on NEOS as far as I can tell. I don't know for sure if the NEOS situation was a further impetus, have just read it was a factor in issuing the clarification, but they didn't apparently do a special letter just for it, or seems that Beretta would show that for product info. The published opinion is actually just a clarification and expansion on the ruling arising from the Thompson Contender, which is referenced in the document I linked.

Wouldn't mind writing the letter, but hate to wait a "few months". I think I'll call local ATF, an agent actually returned my call regarding last question I had about out of state FFL transfer. He knew his stuff on that.

I'll also ask about the AR buffer, whether it has to be one that you can't put a buttstock on or whether a normal rifle one sans buttstock complies for the pistol status, just to clear that part up also.

- OS

Edited October 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest 6.8 AR]

From what I understand, a buffer tube that is incapable of fitting a stock on is suitable for a pistol buffer. To me

that means if you wrapped enough tape around it so that you couldn't fit a stock on it, you would be okay. I've

seen several pistols made like that. I also think that "proximity of" stuff is garbage. You could have a safe with

fifteen AR rifles in it, and have multiple stocks, like Mike Gideon replacing with the latest Magpul goody, then

having an extra stock laying around.

Of course I haven't heard of anyone having been raided because they built a pistol, either. I was looking over my

shoulder when I built my first. I've built four, so far. Maybe they will knock the doors down tomorrow.

[Smith]

For your reading pleasure. No a pistol can be a pistol again once it is configured as a pistol and the parts are not retained by the holder per ATF. Not only that it can be sold and transfered as long as the parts to make an NFA item are not retianed. "Once a rifle always a rifle" does not appear to be accurate.

http://www.atf.gov/f...er-nfa-transfer

Edited October 27, 2012 by AK Guy

[Oh Shoot]

For your reading pleasure. No a pistol can be a pistol again once it is configured as a pistol and the parts are not retained by the holder per ATF. Not only that it can be sold and transfered as long as the parts to make an NFA item are not retianed. "Once a rifle always a rifle" does not appear to be accurate.

http://www.atf.gov/f...er-nfa-transfer

I think you used "pistol" for "rifle" that third time?

Anyway, very interesting, but none of that is quite in the area of what I'm needing to know. It all deals with registered NFA short barreled rifles in the first place. I would not be configuring a short barreled rifle at any time. But I would be "retaining the parts" to go from rifle to pistol and back.

- OS

Edited October 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

From what I understand, a buffer tube that is incapable of fitting a stock on is suitable for a pistol buffer. To me

that means if you wrapped enough tape around it so that you couldn't fit a stock on it, you would be okay. I've

seen several pistols made like that....

Good to know, but quicker to just change whole buffer tube as to wrap/unwrap.

- OS

[Smith]

I think you used "pistol" for "rifle" that third time?

Anyway, very interesting, but none of that is quite in the area of what I'm needing to know. It all deals with registered NFA short barreled rifles in the first place. I would not be configuring a short barreled rifle at any time. But I would be "retaining the parts" to go from rifle to pistol and back.

- OS

No I used it correctly. Maybe I should have said "back to pistol from rifle". Those do address you're question. You can go back and fourth as long as the constructive intent (determined by parts on hand) is not present. The FAQ does approach it from the NFA stand point, but the substance is the same. It doesn't make much sense, but then again it is NFA.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Once a title 1 firearm (Not NFA SBR) is a rifle, whether manufactured or assembled by an individual, it cannot be changed into a pistol. This is what OhShoot is asking about. This has been the rule for a very, very long time. There are exceptions to this rule but they are on a model by model basis.

I wish it wasn't so because I would have several Savage pistols. But it is what it is and will likely remain that way.

Dolomite

[Smith]

Once a title 1 firearm (Not NFA SBR) is a rifle, whether manufactured or assembled by an individual, it cannot be changed into a pistol. This is what OhShoot is asking about. This has been the rule for a very, very long time. There are exceptions to this rule but they are on a model by model basis.

I wish it wasn't so because I would have several Savage pistols. But it is what it is and will likely remain that way.

Dolomite

Maybe I misunderstood the question, but a stripped lower is not registered per say as either a pistol or rifle. So its determination is in assembly. The SBR info indicates that guns are determined in the NFA by assembly and not registration. Registration just clarifies illegal assembly defense. While not NFA per say when he switched from rifle to pistol that is the section that would then apply.

It its late and I might be missing something, but that's how it seems to read to me.

[Oh Shoot]

No I used it correctly. Maybe I should have said "back to pistol from rifle". Those do address you're question. You can go back and fourth as long as the constructive intent (determined by parts on hand) is not present. The FAQ does approach it from the NFA stand point, but the substance is the same. It doesn't make much sense, but then again it is NFA.

Ah okay, I get it. And that does see to jibe with the opinion in the BATF doc I posted.

Once a title 1 firearm (Not NFA SBR) is a rifle, whether manufactured or assembled by an individual, it cannot be changed into a pistol. This is what OhShoot is asking about. This has been the rule for a very, very long time. There are exceptions to this rule but they are on a model by model basis.

I understand everyone says that because it has indeed been interpreted that way by BATF (the only opinion that counts) for a very long time, but my point is that it seems to have changed as per the opinion I posted, which is dated July of last year. As far as individual firearms, I can find no hint of an opinion mentioning any specific one except the Thompson Contender, and some mention or other of antique ones like the old Buntline specials and old Lugers and whatnot.

Actually, I won't get to talk to local agent until Monday.

- OS

Edited October 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[Smith]

Maybe this will clarify a little more.

from BATFE ruling 2011-4 - Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits

Based on the definition of "firearm†in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or "any other weapon†as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no "weapon made from a rifle†subject to the NFA has been made.

[Oh Shoot]

Maybe this will clarify a little more.

It is late for you, I quoted exactly the same above; it is from the opinion I linked.

There are several Glock/Carbine kits being sold now with 16" barrels. No mention of them having to stay carbines forever either. This would tend to support that this is a new interpretation also.

http://mechtechsys.com/glock.php

Another quote from the first of the BATF doc certainly covers all "kit" conversions.

"A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length)."

This would seem to cover all commercially sold kits to make a pistol into a rifle and back.

And as far doing it yourself, with your own "kit":

"A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol)."

This directly says a pistol can go to legal rifle length and back to a pistol, seems to moi.

- OS

Edited October 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[Smith]

It is late for you, I quoted exactly the same above; it is from the opinion I linked.

- OS

Haha! 9-9 days and the babies not sleeping wears me down. that and on my phone its hard to read! How that for excuses?

[Oh Shoot]

Haha! 9-9 days and the babies not sleeping wears me down. that and on my phone its hard to read! How that for excuses?

Totally acceptable.

- OS

Edited October 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

Here is a ATF ruling alst year regarding components for the purposes of NFA:

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or ( convert a - 3 -

complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13.

I read that to mean if you have a barrel less than 16" and only a rifle receiver you might find yourself in trouble. Also, if you have a firearm configured as a pistol and a shoulder stock that will fit you will find yourself in trouble.

Here is where is discusses TC specifically:

The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled "rifle" as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845©. The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845©. Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of "firearm" in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.

But even if you own a TC it doesn't mean you are in the clear. You are only in the clear if the gun was originally sold as a pistol and not a rifle. If a TC was sold as a rifle then it can never be configured as a pistol. If it was orignially sold as a pistol then later a 4473 was done on it specifying it as a rifle it can never be a pistol again. The reason is there is a USC, not the ATF, that covers making a pistol from a rifle. The ATF mentions specific guns in rulings like this, likethe 20mm rifles that are legal without having to register is as a DD.

These are quotes from opinion letters from the ATF last year.

I will call on Monday as I have a few other questions as well. Specifically I will ask if an AR was assembled as a pistol can it be assembled into a rifle then later returned to pistol configuration? I know that if it was sold or originally assembled as a rifle it can never be a pistol. But a pistol can be configured into a rifle. Question is whether "once a rifle, always a rifle" applies to AR's assembled after the transfer. I do know that up until 4-5 years ago lowers were either sold as a rifle or a pistol, no receiver only option on the 4473. Those are the ones that could get someone in trouble.

You might want to configure it into a pistol then take a picture with a newspaper the same day you received the lower. That way you have proof its original configuration was as a pistol.

Dolomite

[Oh Shoot]

...Specifically I will ask if an AR was assembled as a pistol can it be assembled into a rifle then later returned to pistol configuration?...

Yep, that is probably the true the crux of the question. Since all the kits being sold are to convert pistols into rifles. And according to the quotes I've cited, back to a pistol.

You might want to configure it into a pistol then take a picture with a newspaper the same day you received the lower. That way you have proof its original configuration was as a pistol.

I'll have to find an old newspaper.

edit: I'll wait till I hear from your inquiry -- and assuming they say it's a go, ask also:

- can it go back and forth if it were a rifle first, and

- about buffer tube too, whether it has to be incapable of holding stock while in pistol config or whether standard rifle buffer can be left on it, just without stock

- OS

Edited October 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

Yep, that is probably the true the crux of the question. Since all the kits being sold are to convert pistols into rifles. And according to the quotes I've cited, back to a pistol.

I'll have to find an old newspaper.

edit: I'll wait till I hear from your inquiry -- and assuming they say it's a go, ask also:

- can it go back and forth if it were a rifle first, and

- about buffer tube too, whether it has to be incapable of holding stock while in pistol config or whether standard rifle buffer can be left on it, just without stock

- OS

If it was a rifle first I know for a fact it cannot be made into a pistol.

Dolomite

[East_TN_Patriot]

I have nothing of substance to add to this discussion other than what the rest of us already know: NFA RULES ARE TOTALLY IDIOTIC. This is what happens when you give a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats the authority to make rules piecemeal about a subject they know nothing about. It's maddening!

[Smith]

If it was a rifle first I know for a fact it cannot be made into a pistol.

Dolomite

While that may be technically true, how would they verify the original configuration outside of a self incriminating statement from the owner?

The Tics its not kept over 48 hrs so outside of the original 4473 there is no way to know. Even the 4473 should say "receiver", unless you are wily enough too have them list "pistol" every time you buy a receiver.

Just curious, as if that is the case it is much like the whole 922r nonsense.