MSAR STG E4 Rifle

[Guest ThePunisher]

Anybody have this rifle or have any experiences with it. I like the 27 inch length and feel, and that it will use AR15 mags. The older generation uses proprietary mags that run about $45 to $50 each. What is the going price for this rifle.

[Murgatroy]

Last I head the company went under. Ratworx still sells parts for them, but that is about it.

The AUG style never caught on here in the states.

I have shot one, and I loved it. It is on my list, but as a fun gun.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I have one of the older aug-style weapons. Haven't shot it enough to prove its durability, but apparently so far, mine is one of the good ones with no obvious manufacturer defects. It shoots and feeds fine and nothing has broken. Some percent of the MSAR rifles had factory-defect parts that were repaired by the company, but gave the company a bad rep. Dumb stuff like parts where they forgot to heat-treat the parts and they would warp from heat after shooting 100 rounds. But AFAIK, the ones that MSAR didn't screw up are well-made rifles. The company probably made more gooduns than bad ones, but squeaky wheels post lots of internet complaints so it is difficult to estimate the percentages.

One advantage of the aug-style might be that the weapons are at least partially parts compatible with aug guns, if one needed repair parts. Perhaps the E4's are also mostly-compatible with an aug, dunno, never researched it.

I like mine fine, but just tend to shoot pistols more than rifles, so the rifles don't get enough use and spend most of their time in the safe.

[TMF]

I have one of the older gen ones too. Mine seems to work fine. I dig it. I saw a lot of internet bashing of the rifles, so I was a little apprehensive, but I bit the bullet and mine shoots just fine. The newer ones that take M16 mags would be the way to go to avoid the pain of buying AUG mags. Mine came with a dozen mags so it wasn't an issue for me.

[R1100R]

I and a couple of others have the last GEN of the STG-556. We have had no issues and I really like mine after I install device called the NEU-TRIGGER which was around 30 bucks and made a world of difference with the trigger.

MSAR is back up and running in Pennsylvania. Full parts are available. RATWORX thou gt they were going to get it but they will be going with the Steyr AUG and some aftermarket parts for the STG.

http://www.msarinc.com/

[Major Kong]

I had a non-E4 model for a while and really liked it. It was reliable and accurate, pretty much all you could ask of it.

I'm hoping MSAR will finally produce the MCS. I'd absolutely love to have a carbine 10mm.

[nightrunner]

I'm hoping MSAR will finally produce the MCS. I'd absolutely love to have a carbine 10mm.

X2 and a bullpup to boot!

[Guest ThePunisher]

Since MSAR has undergone bankruptcy once and just now starting back up, I think I will look into the Steyr Aug A3's or maybe the new Tavor that is coming out.

[Guest drv2fst]

I had one. I really liked it. A friend wanted it and I sold it to him. I should have told him to get his own. I think they are great guns.

[scoutfsu]

Since MSAR has undergone bankruptcy once and just now starting back up, I think I will look into the Steyr Aug A3's or maybe the new Tavor that is coming out.

This is exactly what you should do. I had an E4 w/ zero issues and loved it. I regret selling it and will buy another some day. However, when MSAR was spiraling down the drain, they (specifically Tony) screwed a lot of people. It is worth the extra couple hundred dollars for a quality AUG.

[Smith]

I had several MSAR's and really liked them. I never had any issues with the 3 I had (two E4's and one Gen 3 STG). Fantastic platform and I like several of their features over the AUG. Ratworx is planning on supplying the parts one would need if the need arose. That being said, I'd probably go with the AUG high price and all.

As far as shooting they are fantastic. Very easy to handle with the weight being centered in the cradle of your arm instead of out front, quick barrel change, ambi, and just all round compact. The 20" I had felt more like a submachine gun than a rifle but shot like a rifle. Really neat feeling.

The Neu-Trigger is a fantastic cheap trigger fix or you can get one of the Hybrid trigger packs from Ratworx that uses AR parts to make it more tunable and serviceable. I'd also look at getting one of the hybrid bolts from Ratworx as well. Again uses AR parts for better serviceability.

[R1100R]

When I got my STG the AUG was 1400.00 more. The AUG now is $1000 more that I paid for mine. That is a big difference.

[Guest FIST]

I have one of the older gen ones too. Mine seems to work fine. I dig it. I saw a lot of internet bashing of the rifles, so I was a little apprehensive, but I bit the bullet and mine shoots just fine. The newer ones that take M16 mags would be the way to go to avoid the pain of buying AUG mags. Mine came with a dozen mags so it wasn't an issue for me.

Got to shoot TMF's and it was a great shooter. I really like the bull pup design and wouldn't hesitate to buy one of em.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I bought my STG "on impulse" having seen it at the local gun emporium and had been hankering a couple of years for a .223 rifle but kept putting it off as "unnecessary purchase". That was in the first half of year 2009 and was freshly arrived via UPS from the factory so dunno if that makes it an early or later generation STG-556. At the time the price was not significantly higher than Colt or other "high end" AR's in stock, but all "military style" rifles had suddenly got crazy expensive for fear of Obama's possible future actions re "assault weapons". So Obama made one of his many gun sales, Obama proving to be the best gun salesman in history. Made master marketer Sam Colt look like a slacker by comparison. A virtually 100 percent made in usa rifle was a plus of course.

In my relative ignorance, liked the STG balance better than an AR, with the center of gravity about on-top of the trigger hand, and the COG definitely setting between the shoulder and forward hand. Seemed easy to point and hold on a target awhile without fatigue of holding steady a "front heavy" rifle. My only adult-owned rifle before that, a bull-barrel 24" barrel remington bolt-action target rifle with heavy walnut stock, was so front heavy it was hard to hold steady except on a rest, so having a close-to-the-shoulder COG was a "revelation" at the time.

Though carbine AR's are not drastically more front-heavy than a bullpup. Didn't buy it completely on impulse, having a policy never to buy something on first sight. Went home and thunk about it for a week first and did some web surfing on the thang.

A 9mm carbine "exactly the same configuration" would definitely be kewl if they ever after all these years get around to making pistol-caliber variants.

Dunno much about rifles then or now, but one refinement that would be nice-- Most likely not real important but it would be nice-- Got the idea from that .308 Keltec bullpup that came out a little later and has since always remained scarce as hens teeth-- The Keltec bullpup .308 is constructed with some thick steel "armor plate" under the plastic, between the bolt and one's cheek. Because the chamber and bolt is practically under one's cheek in a bullpup, it would be "reassuring" to have a little steel in that area in case of a kaboom. Kabooms are not high-probability but they do happen, and in a bullpup it could really ruin yer day.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[TMF]

Dunno much about rifles then or now, but one refinement that would be nice-- Most likely not real important but it would be nice-- Got the idea from that .308 Keltec bullpup that came out a little later and has since always remained scarce as hens teeth-- The Keltec bullpup .308 is constructed with some thick steel "armor plate" under the plastic, between the bolt and one's cheek. Because the chamber and bolt is practically under one's cheek in a bullpup, it would be "reassuring" to have a little steel in that area in case of a kaboom. Kabooms are not high-probability but they do happen, and in a bullpup it could really ruin yer day.

Especially if you're shooting left handed on a right handed configuration. I've seen a couple of kabooms in M16s before; not sure if it was a hot load or not fully seated in the chamber. I was a private and just happened to be on the range when they happened. Either way the result wasn't that bad on the shooter or the weapon. I guess if it was a kaboom with a .308 I'd really want that plating though.

I've seen a kaboom in a plastic Walther 9mm. That destroyed the pistol and injured the shooter's hand.

[Guest drv2fst]

I think the FN FS2000 is a better bull pup made by a better company. It's really ugly but is truly amberdextrious. It uses AR mags. While I loved my MSAR 556, I kept wondering what if I had to fire from the left? Brass right in the face?

The MSAR felt better. It's thinner.

[Guest drv2fst]

I saw a Glock 23 (.40 cal) go kaboom once and it injured the shooters hand. I wouldn't have wanted my face where his hand was. Worse still, his hand was safer under the barrel. If his hand or face had been over the chamber (like it would be in a bull pup) then it would have been worse. However pressure follows path of least resistance and I believe rifles (and bull pups) have MUCH stronger chambers.

[Smith]

I saw a Glock 23 (.40 cal) go kaboom once and it injured the shooters hand. I wouldn't have wanted my face where his hand was. Worse still, his hand was safer under the barrel. If his hand or face had been over the chamber (like it would be in a bull pup) then it would have been worse. However pressure follows path of least resistance and I believe rifles (and bull pups) have MUCH stronger chambers.

Glock .40's kaboom issues are from reloaders and Glock's not having a fully supported chamber. It's not a problem with other models or guns in general. As far as the MSAR/AUG, this isn't a new platform. It's been around and used in different militaries since 1977. Kabooms are not an issue nor is safety to the shooter.

[TMF]

Glock .40's kaboom issues are from reloaders and Glock's not having a fully supported chamber. It's not a problem with other models or guns in general. As far as the MSAR/AUG, this isn't a new platform. It's been around and used in different militaries since 1977. Kabooms are not an issue nor is safety to the shooter.

Well not knowing how a hot load would go in a AUG, the possibility always exists. The hit load I witnessed out of a Walther was factory Winchester, purchased by the Army. I have no idea what caused the chamber explosion in the M16s. Stuff happens. I wouldn't be losing sleep over .223 chamber explosion in an MSAR, unless I was a left hander shooting a right hand configured rifle. That could be catastrophic without eye pro.

[Smith]

Well not knowing how a hot load would go in a AUG, the possibility always exists. The hit load I witnessed out of a Walther was factory Winchester, purchased by the Army. I have no idea what caused the chamber explosion in the M16s. Stuff happens. I wouldn't be losing sleep over .223 chamber explosion in an MSAR, unless I was a left hander shooting a right hand configured rifle. That could be catastrophic without eye pro.

The few reports I've read about some older AUG's was that it blew out the mag. In those cases there was no reciever rupture only the magwell below the gun. The AUG/MSAR carrier is fairly substantial for containing a kaboom and directing it down through the mag well.

[TMF]

Yeah, that BCG seems pretty stout. I'm not losing sleep over it though. I don't reload so the chances of getting a factory hot load is very slim. I'd be a little more concerned if it were a .308 though. Slim or not, the results there would probably not be good on a plastic receiver; it would make me a little jumpy.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I think the FN FS2000 is a better bull pup made by a better company. It's really ugly but is truly amberdextrious. It uses AR mags. While I loved my MSAR 556, I kept wondering what if I had to fire from the left? Brass right in the face?

The MSAR felt better. It's thinner.

Well not knowing how a hot load would go in a AUG, the possibility always exists. The hit load I witnessed out of a Walther was factory Winchester, purchased by the Army. I have no idea what caused the chamber explosion in the M16s. Stuff happens. I wouldn't be losing sleep over .223 chamber explosion in an MSAR, unless I was a left hander shooting a right hand configured rifle. That could be catastrophic without eye pro.

Yeah was kinda "obsessed" with the bullpup concept for awhile after getting the MSAR, and admired the design of the FS2000 but when shouldering one, it felt un-ergonomic and possibly difficult to get accustomed to hold and shoot. But never shot one and maybe it would "grow on you" after some practice. Its maybe lucky the Keltec .308 bullpups have been so scarce, because handling one in person might present a real hazard of "impulse purchase" depending on the "in-person" impression of the gun.

On the MSAR site, noticed they are now selling a single point sling, but no pictures or documentation, haven't had time to look it up. That might be nice.

Dunno if they all work the same, but my MSAR doesn't have any problems of weak ejection. It ejects quite energetically, and generally pretty straight back almost "over the shoulder". So a face full of brass almost certainly, shooting "wrong handed". Face full of pretty energetic brass out of mine.

Got one of those neat ratworx clip-on brass deflectors. Goes on easy and seems to want to stay on the gun firmly, and deflects the brass down to the ground in a fairly small area not far afoot in front to the side. If the clip-on deflector decided to get a little wobbly under rough handling, am pretty sure a bit of double-sided foam tape would make it real resistant to moving around, without permanently marring or modifying the stock. But so far mine wants to stay on pretty good just from the plastic's spring tension, molded to the same profile as the stock. Seems made of good plastic.

The initial motivation for getting the deflector, one day was shooting the MSAR and our member OneManCoyote pointed out where one of the ejected cases had stuck itself like a dart "head first" into a wood 2X4 in the back of the shooting shelter, about head height. The case hadn't penetrated real deep like it was hammered in, but figured if it was going fast enough to stick itself in wood like a dart then maybe it would be unfortunate if somebody without eye protection happened to be standing behind and a case trajectory was to "get lucky".

I don't think the MSAR is a safety hazard re kaboom, but being a belt-and-suspenders kinda guy, a bit of steel between chamber and cheek wouldn't hurt my feelings, is all.

The "quasi-ambidextrous" nature of the MSAR was one of the selling points. It was easy to switch over for left-hand shooting. I'm right handed but have to shoot rifle left-handed because of blind right eye. But you have to use a left-hand bolt when switching over, a little extra expense. The "almost bullpup" beretta pistol-caliber carbine switches over just as easy and doesn't require any extra parts. After getting interested in bullpups, have noticed at gun shows a few older obscure odd-ball bullpups that looked impossible to "easily" make left-handed.

That Bushmaster M17S ferinstance, the port doesn't look movable and the port is so far back looks like it would get you right in the side of the face shooting left-handed. With an AR you can put up with a little hot brass shooting left handed, which I do with my AR. Probably not worth making a left-handed AR, but brass right in the face is something else entirely. On that M17S the port is so far back it looks like you couldn't even attach a brass deflector without getting in the way of a proper cheek weld (shooting left handed).

Noticed that wikipedia has a nice complete-looking list of all the bullpups-- http://en.wikipedia....lpup_firearms#_

[Guest twpayne75]

Friend of mine's gun shop has had one laying there for some time. Have been tempted many times. Not sure which model it is. Has the factory optic that I always liked. I believe it is around $1200. Which to me is a bargain if it worked. Just worried that mine would be one of "the ones".

I had an FS2000 briefly. I liked it. Just didn't really ever shoot it. So I ended up selling it. Only had a few hundred rounds through it, but it never failed.

[Guest ThePunisher]

There is one at a LGS that has been sitting for two years at a $2200.00 price tag. I guess people are just too leary about buying a MSAR rifle at that price and knowing the company has gone bankrupt once, and just now starting back up. Not sure the new company would even honor warranty on it.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

There is one at a LGS that has been sitting for two years at a $2200.00 price tag. I guess people are just too leary about buying a MSAR rifle at that price and knowing the company has gone bankrupt once, and just now starting back up. Not sure the new company would even honor warranty on it.

That is at least double a realistic selling price unless the store just enjoys it decorating the gun rack and doesn't ever want to sell it. The store I bought mine, never heard of the concept of a discount, and I bought it on the "leading edge" of Obama gun-ban hysteria when no "assault rifle" regardless how crappy, was priced less than $1000, and the price I paid was still WAY lower than $2200.

A few days ago was snooping forums about MSAR again. Maybe knew this at one time and forgot, but the serial numbers are real easy to figure out. The last few numbers of the serial num are the sequence of manufacture, so for instance if the last numbers happened to be 6500, then it is the 6500th one that was made. Mine is in the mid-4000 and hasn't been any trouble. You could google it yerself if curious, but I got the impression that past about 3500 or 4000 the quality control was pretty good. Of course some of the early rifles were "good-uns" as well, but supposedly they started getting a better handle on QC after a few thousand.